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Transcript of Willis Propp

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April 12, 1992

Visit by Willis Propp and Wesenbergs
Transcript of Recorded Conversation

NOTE: All of the following had left meetings before this meeting took place. Noreen Kleven pressured the Wesenbergs into visiting with Willis Propp. Wesenbergs wrote: "We never wanted that visit with Willis, but Noreen talked us into it. So we decided that if he is coming, we will tape him, and we'll outnumber the workers (for a change)."

List of Those Present:

Dale & Joyce Wesenberg, Niton Junction, Alberta Canada
Russell Wesenberg - 15 yr old son
Dan Wesenberg- 21 yr old son
Rowena (Wesenberg) Crews - married daughter
Ray Crews - husband of Rowena
Dean Sanders - Nephew of Dale & Joyce (son of Tom & Florence Sanders)
Tamara Sanders - Niece of Dale & Joyce (daughter of Tom & Florence Sanders)

The Workers:
Willis Propp - Overseer, Alberta, Canada
Noreen Kleven - Sister Worker
Sharon Hoercherl - Sister Worker
NOTE: The above 2 women were the pair of preachers assigned to the field where the Wesenberg family lived.
Involved, but not present:
Alayne Collins - Sister Worker

The Transcript

Dale - I just came to the conclusion that I didn't have God. Because I'm convinced that a child of God has victory. That's a promise. In John 4:4, it says we have overcome because greater is He that is in you. I decided the answer had to be in the Bible. So I started on Jesus word and read Matt. 23:37-40, "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God . . ." If love is fulfilled in your life other things will come. My object was to get what it takes to have the victory. So I started doing a study on love and this is where I really had my eyes opened and realized that if there was love, I didn't have it.

About that time we were introduced to a book, and at Didsbury convention Joyce and I went to Everett Swanson and asked about it. Then Everett introduced us to the book, "The Secret Sect ". He had said that there was a lot of lies in it and he indicated to us that there was no apostolic succession. We'd been taught that this way was apostolically succeeded from the beginning. It confused me that we had so many various reports on the origin of this way such as: Jack Carroll said that this started at the beginning of the century, Everett Swanson said that there is no apostolic succession, Eldon said it just sprang up, Mary said it was from the beginning; a brother worker just recently said that there is no way that this way could have been revived and he wouldn't' be preaching if it wasn't from the beginning; Alayne said that it was from the beginning, and an ex-brother worker said that William Irvine started it. I'd like to know where you feel it started.

Willis - Well I'd like to use the scripture as the source of my information for that. I just want you to talk tonight, I don't want to interrupt you, I'd like you to just continue telling us until you have arrived at this day.

Dale - If I'm going to share my feelings, I feel it should be a give and take thing. I can close my eyes to a certain amount of differences of opinion, and I have over the years, but some of this is really important to me. I’ve brought people out to the meetings and I've said this is the way. We just brought some very good folks that came out of the Catholic and Anglican church, and he said he would very much like to be a part of us and the workers said he can’t take part because he's not one of us. we preached that this was started from the beginning, that this was apostolically succeeded.

Willis - I have never used the word "apostolically succeeded."

Dale - I had never heard the word before neither but he used it.

Willis - The scripture teaches that God's way began in eternity. The Lord possessed me, speaking of Jesus, in the beginning of his way before his works were. That's what's began, Dale. One of the simplest answers that I can give is that it began when 2 and 2 became 4.

Dale - I don't understand what you mean.

Willis - You don't understand that? When did 2 and 2 become 4?

Dan - It 's a basic unrefutable law.

Willis - That's right. It began with God and it has always been, 2 and 2 have always been 4. And I could go back in my experience maybe for when I first knew that 2 and 2 was 4, but that's not when 2 and 2 became 4. And I could go. back in my mother's experience when it likely first became aware to her that 2 and 2 was 4 but that wasn't when it became 4. So we can go back and we don't have to trace it generation to generation back to the beginning. The fact that we find 2 and 2, 4 today helps me to appreciate that it was in the beginning. And there's verses like when Jesus talked about the revelation to Peter, that Peter said, Thou art the Christ the Son of the living God, and Jesus said blessed are you Simon Bar-jonah, flesh and blood hath not revealed this unto you but my Father which is in Heaven and I say unto thee thou art Peter, upon this rock I build my church and the gates of hell, or the gates of death that's what that means, shall not prevail against them. And I believe that verse. If I can't believe that, I can't believe the rest of the bible.

Dale - I'm not disbelieving in God, I'm not disbelieving in Christ, but what I am doing is disbelieving that this way is the way to salvation. I believe that Christ died for me and his blood saved me from my sin. That was no doubt from the beginning, but this way as it is today, when did it begin? When was it revived?

Willis - The revelation I received tells me that this is God's way. He saw God's way. I can take you back to the meeting when he saw it. It was a revelation. It wasn't because somebody just said it, telling people doesn't give them the revelation, that comes from God. And you see it like when you see Jacob's ladder shall I say, you see the Son of man and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man, you see God's way. And this is producing the fruit of the spirit in every part of the world that it is being preached and our workers have gone to many many countries, haven't gone to all the countries yet, but they've gone to many many countries. They've never seen a parallel anywhere and there's not a ministry in the world that's like this. People have tried to copy it and tried to imitate it but it doesn't last because God isn't in it. One of the biggest proofs to me that this is God's way is how this ministry is maintained in the world, it's a miracle, nothing short of it, how this ministry carries on in the world.

Dale - Lets go back to the revelation you had, was this a revelation you got from God?

Willis - From God.

Dale - Directly?

Willis - Has to be, can't be a revelation from anyone else.

Dale - Do you think the enemy could give you a revelation? There's many people out there who think they got revelations.

Willis - That's right. But you compare what the revelation is with the scripture and it doesn't add up.

Dale - Comparing scripture is the bottom line: I've had revelations too, a revelation that has brought joy into my life and a degree of the fruits of the spirit. And at this point I am looking at myself and wondering because I'm praying to God that if I'm headed in the wrong direction that he will show me that I'm headed in the wrong direction but I'm desperately asking for direction and so far I have never felt like I do now. It's a new experience.

Willis - The very fact that you were influenced by another book other than this word of God troubles me.

Dale - When I first was reading the bible, I was analyzing and examining myself and realizing that my direction wasn't right. I'm not basing my conclusions on the fact that somebody wrote a book about the origin of this way because I realize that could be a lie too, but my confusion in respect to the origin is the many different reports that we're getting about the number of different beginnings. I didn't start it. Everett Swanson is the one who brought this thing up to begin with. He said there is a hundred lies in it so basically he's saying there's a lot of truth in it. It is the contradiction that's bothering us. If this way was from the beginning, why don't we all say it's from the beginning. I've been telling people that and I'm embarrassed to find out that what I'm saying to other people is not what my brother is saying to somebody else. The contradictions indicate that there is something fishy going on. It doesn't look good.

Willis - It's true that we can trace the fellowship in this land back to the old country, we can go back that far, but I can't go farther back in my memory or the memory of others beyond the twentieth century. I can't go back, but I'm not worried about that at all. we often use this illustration: when we see wheat today that compares with the wheat that is found in the tombs of the Egyptian pharaohs, and it's basically the same though it varies slightly but basically it's wheat the same as it was then. Because it's wheat we don't have to worry about all the generations that brought it to our generation. It's wheat that compares with the original. And this truth produces what this bible tells us. And you see that everywhere.

Dale - Did you know that wheat can look like wheat and not be the same as it doesn't produce the same results when it's eaten? I can make two loaves of bread out of what appears to be wheat, and they produce two entirely different things.

Willis - That's like counterfeit.

Dale - It's like it says he appears as an angel of light.

Dan - Satan is as an angel of light, so how can we tell?

Dale - we have to be really suspicious.

Willis - That's what was happening in the Corinthian churches, someone else was coming in and bringing another Jesus and another spirit and another gospel to Paul's own converts and he was worried that they would be taken up with it, and he told them, this is the way he checked them out, he said cut off the occasion of those who desire occasion. In other words you cut off your support to those people and see how long they last. And he just went on to say "for such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light." So it's no great thing if his ministers be transformed into ministers of righteousness and are counterfeit. You have every right to check that out, every right.

Dale - What other indications are we going to have to really be able to tell counterfeit. we're dealing with the devil who is super compared to us. The part about the false preaching, false ministers includes us too; because we could have been led by the enemy to produce what would appear to be fruit when in fact we are not the children of God. I definitely came to the conclusion that I didn't have God. I had a form of God in me but it wasn't providing...

Willis - That was very, should I say, honorable of you Dale to judge yourself that way but that shouldn't have taken you from God's way.

Dale - It hasn't taken me from God.

Willis - No, but it shouldn't have taken you from the fellowship. You see, there's one thing that the religious world will not recognize, that there's an order in this way of God from God down. God is at the top, then his Son, then the Holy Spirit led ministry, then the elders that are appointed by the ministry, then the people in the church down to the children. That's God's order and has been all the time and they will not accept the ministry. They think that they can get with God without a ministry and without a fellowship.

Dale - You bring up an interesting point. What You're saying is that I can't have God without the ministry.

Willis - You can't have God without the fellowship and the ministry. Here's the body of Christ. The human body is about as clear a perception of God's people in the world, one head and every member in connection one with another under the control of the head. This little finger is not connected with the head except through the body. It can't be otherwise or else we're a freak. You read 1 John 1, the ministry was talking to the people, John was writing to God's people, and he said, "That which was from the beginning, which we have seen and heard declare we unto you that you might have fellowship with us; and truly our fellowship is with the Father".

Dale - I don't dispute the fact that we need to have fellowship but what I 'm saying is that. I have something... (I didn't go into details explaining what happened to me...)

Willis - That's what we want you to tell us about.

Dale - When I realized about the love, I began to doubt this way. It isn’t that I didn’t believe. I was convinced with no question in the past that this was the way and the only way and I told people that, and made it very clear that that was the way it was.

Willis - We hope you never lose that vision or whatever it is that made you feel that way, we hope you never lose that.

Dale - Having a vision wasn't doing me any good. I could say those things but I needed the power of God in my life but didn't have it.

Willis - ha, ha, but then why discredit it when you got the power of God, why don't you thank God all the more for his ministry and the fellowship, why...

Dale - Because it was through deductions that lead me to the conclusion that this way may not be in fact the way that Christ intended. When I started to realize that there was hope through the scripture, it says the word of God saves, I came to realize that salvation came because of belief and through the grace of God by reading the bible.

Willis - Where did you find that?

Dale - Many places here, Acts 16:30,31, says the jailer believed and was saved, Acts 2:37,39 says the thief was saved, no works involved in him. I came to the conclusion that I was wasting my time trying to work for salvation. I wasn't getting anywhere and it dawned on me that salvation comes through the blood of Christ and through the grace of God. I read that part where it says my yoke is easy and my burden is light , and when I realized that, I had one heap of a load lifted off my back. I realized that God was going to actually deal with me as an individual and that the gift's would be handed to me as the Lord saw the ability for me to cope with them.

Willis - You're telling us Dale, now by your words, you're telling us the very same thing that a Plymouth brethren would tell us, that a Baptist would tell us, any of those denominations out there telling us the same thing that we believe in works for salvation, and we do not believe in works for salvation. We believe that salvation works but we do not believe in salvation by works.

Dale - say that again. Salvation works...

Willis - Salvation works. Faith has always been an active thing. Faith produces an action but we don't have to work for salvation.

Dale - That is the truth, is that not the truth?

Joyce - Salvation is a gift.

Willis - Which is a matter how you get it??? (Inaudible)

Dale - That's right and number one on the list is believing and having faith.

Willis - Now you just turn in your bible . . .

Dale - Just hold it a second, is what you said to me what you people understand as truth, or am I hearing this correct? Salvation works. That 's exactly what I'm understanding from what this bible tells me, but we're getting contradictions. Was Noah saved as result of building the ark or was the building of the ark a result of his being saved?

Willis - He had faith before he started building the ark.

Dale - He had a relationship with God, didn't he? He was saved before he started building that ark. But that’s not what Alayne told me. Alayne said in gospel meetings, and I questioned her about it when she came here but she reinforced her stand, that Noah was saved as a result of building the ark.

Sharon - But Dale, Alayne was using the example of Noah as a type when she was speaking in gospel meetings, just like it's used in the new testament.

Dale - I still got the impression that he worked for his salvation.

Dan - She was reinforcing the need for us to work for our salvation and that basically our salvation is a result of what effort we put out towards God and for God.

Willis - It's very difficult to not be misunderstood I guess, but if you'd read this verse you'd understand how we believe. 1 Cor. 3:5.

Dale - “Who then is Paul! and who is Apollos but ministers by whom ye believe even as the Lord gave to every man.” So what is your point on that?

Willis - The point is that that's how you believe, They heard the gospel through those two servants of God. That's how they believed.

Dale - But Paul says that he received it of no man, he didn’t receive it of a man.

Willis - ha, ha, you're getting the religious concept in there again. They can disregard the ministry and get connected with God.

Dale - No, I’m using a scripture, where does it say that?

Dan - It speaks in the scripture about. there being no mediator between God and man, so being no mediator Jesus is the only mediator between us and God?

Willis - That’s exactly right.

Dale - Seeing he mentioned that, why is it we say that you have to come through workers and through this way in order to have salvation but there's no mediator between God and man?

Willis - Because that's God's order for salvation; Like you folks have no problem in recognizing the way children are born into the natural world, do you, you have no problem with that at all. You should have no problem in how God's children are brought into the world. We have on record in the Acts of the apostles four special individuals, Saul of Tarsus is one, the Ethiopian eunuch is another, Lydia the seller of purple is another, and Cornelius is another. Four individuals to help us understand that in each case they came into God's family in the right order, the way that God ordained. What was the ministry for in the first place, why did Jesus choose the ministry? He said to them in the last night of his life: he that heareth you, heareth me. They were going to be here in his stead in the world. He that heareth you heareth me, he that receiveth you receiveth me, he that rejecteth you rejecteth me, that's where the ministry is in God's order. The Ethiopian eunuch was reading his bible and there are untold people out in the religious world today that say they can read their bible and get saved.

Dale- That's what the scriptures say.

Willis - It doesn't say that.

Dale - It does, it says . . .

Willis - You know what is amazing to me Dale . . .

Dale - Just a minute, let's see what the bible says.

Dan - Jesus said I am the way, the truth and the life. No man cometh unto the Father but by me. He is the way. His essence is the way to heaven rather than his example or his teaching. his essence is actually the way to heaven. His example and teaching, naturally is manifested in the life of a true Christian.

Dale - Here is what it says in II Tim. 3:15, "the scriptures which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ." and in Gal. Paul says for I neither received it of man or was taught it but by revelation. It would indicate to me that not only do we say in Tim. that the scriptures are able to make thee wise unto salvation but Paul is saying that he got it directly from God.

Willis - Let me ask you, when the Lord spoke directly to him from heaven why did he have to go to Ananias in Damascus. When Paul answered, he was told to arise and go into Damascus and there to be told you, and there's where he received the Holy Spirit, not on the road to Damascus.

Dale - I realize there was a man. But who was this man?

Willis - He was one of God's children.

Dale - Was he a worker?

Willis - I'm not prepared to say it. He might have even been a child of God without being in the work.

Dale - He had a home, didn't he?

Willis - Yes, which makes it more significant to me than ever. When Jesus talked, I'll get back to these four people because I want you to get that clearly tonight, Dale, Jesus said to the Pharisees who had the problem...

Dale - I know Alayne read that to me, I know exactly what you're going to tell me, I can even tell you where it is.

Willis - You searched the scriptures and then you think you have eternal life.

Dale - I told Alayne that I was getting a lot of joy and satisfaction out of reading this bible and you know what she said, "you're reading your bible too much".

Willis - Too much, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha.....

Dale - And you know what, she didn't just end there she reinforced it at the fellowship meeting the next day. And I went through this bible and I read time and time again that we should read. It says till I come give attendance to read, to exhortation. to doctrine, countless times through this bible and it tells us we should be reading. Why was she telling me and referring out of context a portion of the bible that was directed to Pharisees who were reading and were pretty proud of what they knew and thought they were really something, when I wasn't reading for that reason. I wanted to find out what God had to say and she made out that I was reading my bible too much. You remember that.

Sharon - Dale you weren't at that fellowship meeting the next morning.

Dale - No, but Joyce was and she told me what was said and it reinforced her stand that she had made that day. That wasn't the only time, I think that in gospel meetings she mentioned it too. It was discouragement from reading God’s true word, and I thought how can a true disciple tell you not to read or even insinuate, even if she didn’t say it or made a mistake, I could see making a mistake once, but she reinforced it. That is dynamite, you don't tell somebody that. There's people out there that I don't think I could ever help but I bought them a bible in hopes that they would read it and start seeing some things and get a desire for the word of God and for the truth.

Willis - And I think we should have this book instead of any other book, you know, I believe that. This says to those people, and it applies to us all, that you cannot get Christ by reading the bible.

Dale - Where does it say that?

Willis - "Search the scriptures for in them you think you have eternal life and they are they which testify of me." That's John 5.

Dan - How would we integrate that scripture with the previous scriptures? You're saying by reading the scriptures, salvation through the scriptures. . . . able to make you wise unto salvation.

Dale - II Tim. 3:15 lets look it up.

Willis - you don't understand it, that's not salvation, wise unto salvation isn't salvation. I read in the bible how I would get it, reading doesn't give it to me.

Dale - When I did the study on salvation, I found out that there are five things the bible says gets salvation: one is the word, one is grace, one is the blood, one is faith, and one is believing. It didn't say one thing about apostles.

Willis - Now let's just go here and just catch all that in your Romans 10: this is where you take your bible for a text book and not a reference book and I hope you can appreciate that. The reason we have 2500 different religious denominations, so-called Christians, is because they use this bible for a reference book and take a verse out of its context. And if you have. a Jehovah Witness talking to you and using this bible for a reference book, you would become a Jehovah Witness because they just take out something that controls their thought.

Dale - Don't you feel we are doing the very same thing?

Willis - Not at all.

Dale - We really reinforce the things that we really stress and spend time reading them, I've done that for years.

Willis - This is what it says now in Romans 10, "If thou shalt confess with the mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved." So we stop there and we've just had a little reference now to our people.

Dan - No, we have to use the entire scripture.

Willis - Let's just go on now "For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed (or in another translation shall not be confused). For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek; for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."

Dale - well, there you are right there.

Willis - Let's not just stop there. We're just using it for a reference so far. "How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent?" Now do you discredit all that and say all you have to do is believe?

Dale - Now, it doesn't say that a preacher is absolutely essential in salvation but it is no doubt a good thing, right? I haven't got the time to read my bible like a learned person that spent his entire life reading the bible. I go to work, I have to earn a living. Do I ever appreciate having somebody tell me what this means that spent their entire life at reading and understanding the word of God. That's one place in here, but I've told you five different places that it says salvation comes through the five different ways.

Willis - Let me give you four more then. The Ethiopian that was reading his bible and God sent his servant across that man's path and he said to him, do you understand what you read? And the man said, how can I except some man should guide me. And he invited Philip up to sit with him in the chariot, and Philip preached unto him Jesus. Now, if he could have got this salvation by reading his bible he would not have needed to have had Philip in the desert either, leaving his wonderful mission in Samaria to go down there to help him. So you don't get salvation by reading the bible.

Ray - It doesn't just have to be a worker.

Willis - It can be a representative.

Dan - It seems to me there would be a lot of situations where there would be people that don't have the opportunity of having a minister come to them.

Rowena - Doesn't the word preacher not only refer to people, it refers to creation? All that God has created that preaches to us.

Dale - It magnifies the power of God.

Willis - Let's just go back to the natural childbirth. You don't question natural childbirth do you?

Dale - In what way?

Willis - God's order for children to be brought into the world. You don't question that at all. So why would you question the order that God has arranged for children to be born into his family, why would you question that?

Dale - I'm not questioning the order that you're talking about, I'm trying to figure out what God's order is. You're reinforcing your stand that it has to come through a representative and that's alright. I'm not denigrating the importance of a representative but what I'm saying is he did not indicate in all aspects, there were opportunities where he could have mentioned that, that that was absolutely essential that it come through an apostle that they would have salvation, but instead he said salvation through believing. You have two more that you wanted to mention.

Willis - I have three more that I wanted to mention, but let's get back to the order. This is the order. This is how you believe is through the ministry, or through the representative if you want to call it that. Whosoever calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved, how then shall they call upon him in whom they haven't believed. So how do they believe? How can they believe on him whom they have not heard? How do they hear? How can they hear without a preacher? How can they preach if they haven't been sent? Now that's God's order. Here's where we just mentioned the Ethiopian that was reading and he had to meet with Philip. God sent him there. That was the Holy Spirit that actually sent Philip to the eunuch.

Shall I go to Cornelius next? He was praying, he was a wonderful man, he feared God, he gave much alms to the people, and he prayed to God always. A wonderful man. Many, many religious people stop there and say that he was a saved man then. He was a God-fearing and a God-praying man and if he could have got salvation without a living representative then he could have got it but he had to go and send men to Peter you remember and Peter came and preached the gospel to those people in Cornelius' house and he received new life through the order that God has arranged.

So you don't read to get right with God and you don't pray; both are very wonderful things. We would encourage you to read and to pray, but that's not God 's order in coming into his family. Then we get to Lydia, and she was a person that just prayed, it was the customary thing to pray with the other women at the riverside. and Paul and his companion came to that area, and they heard about the prayer meeting and went out there. Of all those that were mentioned, I don't know how many, Lydia, was the only one that God could touch out of that prayer meeting so she had to have the living representative to bring her into the family. And then we come to Paul himself and he had a vision from the Lord from heaven, light shone from heaven, and if anybody could have got saved without coming through the order it would have been Paul himself, but he had to go to Ananias in the city. So here's the Father that spoke to Cornelius, here's the Son that spoke to Saul of Tarsus, here's the Spirit that spoke to Philip or the Ethiopian. Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, never altered the order, totally agreed in how people are brought into this fellowship.

Dale - Is it possible that because written words were so scarce that that was the only possible way of transferring knowledge from one person to the next, that this could of had some basis on this?

Willis - Is it possible that a little natural baby could be born into this world in a different way than God arranged it in the beginning? Could it be possible?

Dale - Well it is, it's happening now. I'm not saying it's right but they're doing it in test tubes.

Willis - ha, ha, but it's not a birth is it?

Dale - well they’re doing some weird things out there, but I'm not saying it's right , so I'm not reinforcing that. But I do have to ask this question. You talked about two different situations, one was Paul, one was the Ethiopian. Were those faithful men or were they actual apostles?

Willis - They were part of the fellowship of God's people in the world, let's just put it that way.

Dale - Does that mean if I'm a faithful person that someone could be saved through me?

Willis - That's possible, and I believe what you'd do if you were, that you’d get them in touch with the workers as soon as you possibly could.

Dale - I would, yes, but what I'm asking, is that necessary, and if it is, it almost appears to me that we are putting a mediator between God and man.

Willis - Not when I read it in the bible. Ministers by whom ye believed is in the bible. Ministers brought the gospel by the vine. Then we have the acts of the apostles, that's the work of the ministry after He went back to His Father's right hand. That ministry was to carry on the work that He established when He was here. And He said He was going back to his Father and they were to go and preach the gospel unencumbered. They were the branches. He said to his disciples, I'm the vine and you're the branches. So we have the ground now and the vine of the gospels and the acts of the apostles in Acts. Now the fruit are the epistles written to God's people. And you can't get the epistles connected with the vine without the branches.

Dan - I don't dispute God's order at all neither but . .

Willis - There it is. Now we got the fruit, that's the epistles speaking of God's people, and every one of those children, whether it's the Christians in Rome or the Christians in Corinth or the Christians in Galatia or Ephesus, or Colossians or Thesalonica, everyone was directly connected with the ministry that Jesus established. And they bore the fruit of the spirit and the revelation is the harvest and I don't want to leave out the harvest.

Dale - Neither do I and that harvest is near. I know one thing that if I wasn't getting victory, obviously I wasn't saved.

Willis - I wouldn't say that altogether because the scripture tells me that a righteous man falls seven times but rises up again.

Dale - Oh, but I fell more than seven and on the same issue. I believe that we should have power over the enemy, that is the promise of God, not that we're not going to make mistakes but we shouldn't have to keep coming back. I'll tell you what's happened to me since. I have had victory so far. I'm not going to jump up and down and say that I'm going to have it forevermore because I'm afraid of myself. But I do say one thing, that I have never had a problem with this particular situation that I couldn't deal with, with the power of God. Now another thing.

Willis - That's very good.

Dale - I did fall the same way I had been for thirty years.

Willis - Well thanks for telling us.

Dale - I did and I never felt the way I felt this time that I had before. I was devastated that there was no feeling of God with me. He left me, I was alone and I knew I was alone. That was the reaction to my sinning the same as I have sinned all these thirty years. Another time I went into a drugstore and looked at someone, who wasn't all that good-looking, a little too long. I know that my looks said something to that person and by the time I got home I had conviction in my heart that I had acted disastrously. And I got the bible out and 1 read about respecting people. God hates respecters of persons and I realized the error of my ways. And I was thrilled to think that God would direct me on that issue, and even today I was corrected in a small way, and I am thrilled that God is speaking to me like I've never felt before.

Willis - I just hope, Dale, that you don't get to the place where, I can tell you about one person that was talking about victory like this, and he just said, "I just feel so thankful now that I don't sin like other people, ever since God spoke and I received his spirit I just don't sin anymore".

Dale - You get the impression I'm saying that?

Willis - I hope you don't get to that. But it's possible you know, you're talking about such wonderful victory now, it's possible to over-stress that? I'm not saying that you do, but wouldn't that be a desperate thing...?

Dale - No, let me continue what I'm saying, I understand how you're feeling. One thing that I've noticed that I've never noticed before is that there are things in my life that I never knew were there before that have to be dealt with, more things now than I ever dreamt that ever even existed. Because the closer that I got to God the more he deals with me, the more he was able to indicate to me what needed to be dealt with and dealing with different problems, not being confronted with the same repetition.

Willis - This man, I'll just get back to him to warn you about that kind of thing, he just said "I'm to the place now where I don't sin anymore".

Dale - I don't believe that. I believe that I am a sinner and I will be until the end.

Willis - So I said, I didn't have my bible with me, so I said have you got your bible and he said, yes I got my bible, and I can tell you the verses that you want to show me, so he turned to 1 John 1:10 and it says, and if we say that we have not sinned we make him a liar and his word is not in us. And I said that's not the verse, that's sin of the past if we say we have not sinned, but other than this if we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. That man actually arrived at the point where he felt that he didn't sin anymore. And there are religious teachers out there that say you can actually arrive to the point where sin is eradicated and that you are no longer a sinner.

Dale - I don't have a problem with that. What you're telling me is true and I appreciate that . I realize more now than ever, and I really feel devastated to be quite honest with you, I really feel that Christ will be returning here in a very short order, that I have such little time...

Willis - Could you tell us, Dale, how you told us that you never sinned anymore since you got the victory.

Dale - Oh, I didn't say that I never sinned...

Willis - Yes you did, like you had victory with this ever since you got to see...

Dale - With this particular problem.

Willis - A half an hour later you tell us...

Dan - You get victory then you move on.

Dale - You move on to the next problem. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that I'm sinless.

Willis - But you went back and said that you sinned once since then.

Dale - OK, yes.

Willis - Why did you tell us that .you didn't at first and then you told us that you did once after that. What are you trying to say?

Dale - I guess I could explain that by saying that it's difficult for me to size exactly where my eyes were opened. It was through these different experiences that I began to believe that I was beginning to see, because I was having victory. Today I was trying to zero in on it because I would like to say this is what happened and I saw the light, but I can't lay my finger on any specific incidence other than I decided that I needed help desperately and I was going to get it in here.

Willis - What did your experience bring you into? Are you just in fellowship with God now, is that where you stand now?

Dale - 1 think what it did was brought me into a relationship with God, yes, into an understanding of his truth, of his gift.

Willis - Who are your shepherds?

Dale - I don't....

Willis - you don't need it?

Dale - Don't put words into my mouth, I'm not saying I don't need a shepherd, but at this point I'm searching my heart, 1'm trying the spirits, I'm trying to decide what is right, that is my responsibility. what I want to do is I want shepherds that are true. I am getting too many mixed messages to feel comfortable that this is the way. You can't get contradictions and put your faith in it. If you tell me one thing and someone else tells me another, and they both say they are picking up their directions from God, this head of mine tells me something is incorrect. Do you believe that my conclusions are correct, that if that was the case it would be justified?

Willis - I believe you're straining at the gnat, Dale. We've heard about young people standing up in the meeting and giving their testimony, a young worker giving a testimony about going out in sundries times and in divers manners spake unto the Father to pacify the prophets that in the last days it is spoken of by his Son and understood it to mean sea-divers manners, had a wonderful message on that 's how God's using people today. That doesn't trouble me at all because someone had a wrong thought about a particular verse. It's not essential, we're not a body of believers today because we have uniform interpretation on every verse of the bible, that 's not why we're united. We're united because we have a single purpose and love, we're absolutely united on the fundamentals of this kingdom.

Dale - What are the fundamentals?

Dan - Would you say that the way to salvation would be Jesus Christ, the way of salvation believing on Jesus Christ is a fundamental?

Willis - Exactly.

Dan - would you also say that knowing who Jesus Christ is, is also a fundamental?

Willis - Right, because we have to discern the spirits because there are many Jesus’ in the world today.

Dale - Let's look at that point. Who is Jesus? I was just told recently that Jesus was a man. Now these are fundamentals that we should agree on, could you tell me who Jesus is to you?

Willis - Jesus is the Son of God. That was the revelation that Peter got was that Jesus was the Christ, the Son of the living God. Jesus was his human name, he was totally human and totally divine in one person.

Dan - He was totally human and totally divine so he was 100% man and 100% God in one person.

Willis - In one person, that's the incarnation.

Dale - So you believe basically in the trinity.

Willis - ha, ha, I don't.

Dale - I mean if you use that word.

Willis - No, it's not a scriptural word.

Dan - Jesus, God, and the Holy Spirit are all one and they're all God.

Willis - In one, how one in what...

Dan - One in essence.

Willis - See, the Father, and the Son and the Holy Spirit: we believe in the Father, we believe in the Son, we believe in the Holy Spirit, we do not believe in the trinity.

Dan - You believe in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.

Willis - Yes, it speaks of the name. And Jesus and the Father were not one person, they were one in agreement. Go back in Genesis 1 - let us make man in our image. It wasn't one person, let me make man in my image, it was let us make man in our image. They agree in one. When Jesus prayed the last night of his life about his workers and He prayed about them first, He said He didn't want them taken out of the world but that they would be kept from the evil of the world and that they might be one even as He and his Father were one. Well you can't get 82 preachers in one person, but you can get them in agreement.

Dan - Jesus is 100% God and 100% man. Now...

Willis - He's 100% Son of God; 100% divine.

Dan - I stated that earlier...

Sharon - I don't think Willis got what you said when he agreed earlier.

Dale - OK can I ask you this question tonight. Now that is one of the basic fundamentals that you believe that we have to understand because there are other Jesus' and if we believe that Jesus was God that would be incorrect?

Willis - Well I would be a little bit afraid to say that He was God because I would rather say He was divine. This verse maybe will help you understand that. This trinity business is Catholic doctrine and it's come down through the ages.

Dan - well there's no real need to even use the word trinity, it's just an understanding of the essence of God.

Willis - The Catholics think they're one person, like the rosary prayer is holy Mary mother of God, holy Mary mother of God, and that is wrong because Jesus is not God. Jesus was the Son of God. John 8 says, I proceeded forth and came from God, I proceeded forth from God so He was the only begotten Son of the Father. He wasn't God, He was the Son of God.

Dan - Let's read Heb. 1:8,

Willis - I know what you're doing. Are you talking about "Thy throne O God is forever and ever"?

Dale - Yes, Heb. 1:8.

Dan - This understanding of who Jesus is I would say is probably the greatest thing that has affected my own stand and my own feelings inside. To understand who Jesus is and who I am serving, and ultimately why I am serving him has brought peace in my heart, a peace that I never felt before.

Dale - And you know that it's obvious to us that something happened to Daniel. But let's carry on and read Col. 2:9 "For in him dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead . ." 1 Tim. 3:16, "without controversy great is the mystery of godliness; God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.”

Willis - Read the marginal reference to that. It says he who was manifest in the flesh, he who was manifest in the flesh.

Dan - Capital H there?

Willis - He was divine, totally divine. You see you miss the point when He said I and my Father are one and He prayed for 82 people to be one even as He and his Father were one. They're not one. A man and his wife when they become man and wife are one, but they're not one. They're two people united, that's how the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit are united.

Dale - I follow you on that, let's look at Matt. 1 :23, "Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us." What does your margin say?

Willis - So when Jesus was born, there was no Father in heaven. That's what you're trying to tell me.

Dale - No, I'm telling you what the bible says.

Willis - You're just telling us that....

Dan - God is from everlasting to everlasting and so is the Son. Jesus said that before Abraham was, I AM.

Willis - Exactly.

Dan - well there you go, He was from everlasting to everlasting.

Willis - But He was not the Father.

Dan - No, He's not the Father, but...

Dale - Now just a minute I have a place in here that says He was the Father.

Dan - He's also God wasn't he?

Sharon - He was the Son of God.

Dale - Isaiah 9:6 says "a child is born..." open up Isaiah 9:6.

Willis - We know that.

Dale - We've got to go to the scriptures if we're going to talk about this. It would be nice to refer...

Willis - "For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace."

Dale - Yes, so how can you say He's not the Father then?

Willis - Well, because He isn't the Father.

Dale - He's not the Father?

Rowena - He's not the Father, He's part of the Godhead.

Dan - It says that in him shall the fullness of the godhead dwell bodily. The fullness of the godhead is the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. So in this sense you can draw the analogy that the yolk, when we take a picture of an egg for instance, the shell, the white and the yolk, we could say that the yolk is the egg. This is something our minds cannot fathom, this is a miracle but indeed the yolk is the egg. Jesus is the fullness of the godhead, God the Son.

Willis - There are other verses that contradict that deduction Dale.

Dale - OK but there are still some more that support it. John 1:14 says, "and the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, ( and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth."

Willis - So the Father begot the Father.

Dale - One in one? Yes, and then it says, “In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God.” So we would from that conclude that if the word was God and then we go over here and say that the word was made flesh, that it was Jesus and Jesus was God. Isn't that logical? That's in the same chapter.

Willis - Yes, if you look at the original of John 1:1 it says he was a god. He was divine. You cannot reconcile a father and a son as one person, you can’t do that.

Dan - There’s more than one god then if he was a god.

Willis - He was divine.

Dan - He was divine, you said that he was a god. If Jesus was from everlasting to everlasting and He was God the Son, and it speaks of the fullness of the godhead dwelleth in him bodily, of course this is something that we can't understand, and we can't even expect to understand it. God the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are one God.

Willis - ha, ha, There are volumes written about the trinity and we do not believe it.

Dan - What do you believe then? Do you believe that Jesus was from everlasting to everlasting?

Willis - We believe that somewhere back in the eternal past He proceeded forth from God and the bible doesn't tell us when but somewhere back in the eternal past He proceeded from his Father. He was with the Father in the beginning before the world was.

Dan - This is a very important item.

Willis - We believe in the resurrection of Jesus and when He prayed in the last night of his life He wanted the same glory that He had with his Father before the world was. I just wanted to get you this verse where it says that they agree in one. You see, they are one in the sense that they are in total harmony. We like those three People we read about, Cornelius whose dealings was with the Father, and Saul, Saul of Tarsus, whose leading was with the Son, and the Ethiopian whose leading was with the Spirit. And there was no contradiction between the work of the Father and the work of the Son and the work of the Holy Spirit. No contradiction.

In the old testament there was Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, we read about all three. The Father was the dominant personality in the old testament. Then Jesus came upon the scene, born of a woman, made of a woman, made under the law. And we read about the Father, Son and Holy Spirit even at his baptism but God said, this is my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased, hear him. So in the days of Jesus, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, and the dominant one then was Jesus, hear him, listen to him. Then Jesus went back to the Father and promised the Holy Spirit. In the Acts of the apostles we have the Father, and the Son and the Holy Spirit, but it's the Spirit that's the dominant one today and we're living in the spirit age, and they are three separate entities in total harmony one with the other. We read about the throne of God and the throne of the Son in the scripture. Not one throne, we read about two thrones. I'll just read that to you.

Dan - In the beginning God said let us make man in our image, God said, right away there is singular God, and let us, indicating more than one person.

Willis - A Jewish lady was thrilled to find that verse. She said Jesus was with the Father in eternity before the world was, was wonderful.

Dan - He was with the Father in eternity before what again?

Willis - Before the world was.

Dan - Before the world was. He was in heaven with the Father in eternity, In other words He always was just as God is, just as the Father is, just as the Holy Spirit is.

Willis - Except 1 don't know when it happened Dan, but He proceeded forth from God. See, 1 don't know when that happened. Jesus himself said that, I proceeded forth from God. That happened in the eternal past.

Dan - That was his expression on the earth, that was his manifestation as flesh, He proceeded forth from the Father.

Willis - No, He came from the Father here but He proceeded forth from the Father, He was the only begotten of the Father.

Ray - In verse 26 of Genesis it says let us make man in our image and the next one says and God created man in his own image.

Willis - We are the image of God. I wanted to get these two thrones here. Here's a verse that helps me to appreciate that there are two in hearty agreement. Rev. 5, "Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power , . . . . be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, (that's God) and unto the Lamb for ever and ever." They're two separate beings. And in Rev. 3, in one of the messages to the churches he says, "Behold I stand at the door and knock .... To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne." So there was the throne of the Lamb and the throne of God.

Dan - They have explained it in a way that makes it easier for us to understand the actual purpose that the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit have in common, but you give scripture to support the position of course that you have, and we use scripture to support ours but is it possible to integrate both sides of the story?

Dale - Let's read that one in John 10, "But the Jews answered him saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God."

Willis - Because he said my Father.

Dale - It is a very important thing, our understanding of Jesus.

Dan - It's our salvation.

Dale - And it's awkward with the different scriptures that indicate that He is God and the ones that indicate He is the Son of God.

Willis - Like, Dale, if you want to believe Catholic doctrine, then believe that He's God.

Dale - I'm not reading out of the Catholic bible, I'm reading out of the King James. The same book that you're reading.

Willis - Yes, but...

Dale - I never got that from the Catholics. Don't ever think that I think that Catholics are on the right way.

Willis - That's where the doctrine of the trinity comes from.

Dale - We're reading the bible and trying to understand what God actually intended to tell. and we've listed about 8 different places in the bible that do give you the impression that He was God. Emmanuel means God with us. Those things indicate that He was Gad, but I'm going to have to think about this a little more.

Willis - Go back to Heb 1:3 and you read where He was the express image of his Father. He wasn't his Father, He was the image of his Father, and we see that in natural life. I've seer, a boy walking down the street a block away going the opposite direction, and he was the express image of his dad. He wasn't his dad, but he was like his dad. I recognized him without his face turned, by his walk, by his bearing, he was the express image of his dad.

Dan - Yes, God made flesh.

Dale - We were talking about how we get saved originally but we didn't cover it all. Can you tell me how you get saved?

Willis - Exactly, I just read it in Romans 10.

Dale - Romans 10, what did it say? Oh, yes that was through the apostles.

Willis - I want to give you this Dale. You're saying that you're saved by grace. I want to show you a verse how grace comes. I'll give you two verses about how grace comes. See, you're trying to suggest to us that you can be out here in the desert somewhere away from everybody else and get salvation. That's what you're trying to say to us. And God is trying to teach us by the scripture and by the record of the scripture how he has an order for this. And it says "by grace are ye saved and that not of yourselves it's the gift of God," but how does grace come? Grace appears unto all men. So how does grace appear? In the lives of those who have it.

Dan - Grace is unmerited favour, the definition of grace is.

Willis - That's the dictionary definition.

Dan - That's the definition of grace, that's the Greek translation of grace.

Willis - And grace is a divine influence. You don't see unmerited favour, you see the result of it, but you see influence. That grace is the influence and...

Dale - But you can feel grace, you can feel unmerited favour.

Willis - Yes, right. Grace... I'll just read this portion, we were looking at it even today, when the gospel went first to Jerusalem, then to Judea, then to Samaria and then to the uttermost parts of the world, to the Gentile people... Here in Acts 11 it says, "they which were scattered abroad upon the persecution that arose about Stephen travelled as far as Phenice, (that's verse 19 if you want to follow it, Acts 11:19) and Cyprus, and Antioch, preaching the word to none but unto the Jews only. And some of them were men of Cyprus and Cyrene, which, when they were come to Antioch, spake unto the Grecians, (or the Greeks or the Gentiles you see) preaching the Lord Jesus". Now there's God's servants coming and preaching t he gospel at Antioch to the Gentile people and the hand of the Lord was with them and a great number believed through their ministry. That's how people believed, through the ministry and turned unto the Lord. Then tidings of these things came unto the ears of the church which was at Jerusalem and they sent forth Barnabas that he should go as far as Antioch to see what was going on among the Gentile people. And when he came and had seen the grace of God, now he saw it in the lives of those people and they got it through hearing the workers or ministry that came and preached it to them, that's how they got it. And he saw it and was glad and exhorted them all, that with purpose of heart they would cleave unto the Lord. That's how you get grace.

Dale - You know Eph. 2:5-9 indicates that, for by grace you are saved...

Willis - Exactly.

Dale - Through faith, not through the apostles, through faith.

Willis - Yes, but how do you get faith?

Joyce - It says in Romans 10 that faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. And just before that it says how shall...

Willis - Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God.

Rowena - But hearing doesn't have to refer to a preacher.

Dan - We've decided that a preacher is an important area for salvation.

Willis - Very, very definite.

Dale - I won't argue that.

Dan - That may be God's order. to send preachers out that they may tell about salvation, but we still haven't decided on which preachers are false and which preachers are true.

Willis - I have decided.

Dan - I've decided also. I believe myself that Jesus is the way and there is no form that we can claim as being the condition for salvation. We cannot claim a form as being something that's necessary in order to obtain salvation. That takes away the grace, that takes away the purpose of God's covenant.

Dale - That's like putting a mediator between us and God.

Willis - ha, ha, you have the religious concept when you tell us that Dale. That 's the concept of the religious world that have disregarded the ministry.

Dale - Let me ask you a question then. If you have the right to cast me into hell or to cast me out of the truth, are you not in a position where you are a powerful mediator between God and me? Like you can actually kick me out of the way, right?

Willis - For one, I wouldn't want to do that Dale.

Dale - No, but You can and you're in the position to do that and people have had it done.

Willis - well, let me just read this. This is what Paul had to do for the sake of helping a person, that's why they did it. The children of Israel were sent into captivity for 70 years to Babylon with the thought that it was going to help them, not to destroy them but to help them. That's why it was done. When Paul dealt with the situation in Corinth, this is what he said (the message came to him by a letter, he wasn't even there), I verily was absent in body but present in spirit had judged already as though I were present concerning him that had so done this deed, (there was a sin committed there), and in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ when you are gathered together and my spirit with the power of the Lord Jesus Christ, to deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. So that man was asked to step aside from the fellowship with the thought that he would see his error and repent and get right. And I'm so thankful for the second book of Corinthians that tells that's exactly what happened. He was restored in hearty fellowship and Paul could say that you are completely clear on the matter.

I just want to read it for you, I hope you appreciate it. "Sufficient to such a man is this punishment which was inflicted on many so that contrariwise you are rather to forgive him and comfort him less perhaps such an one should be swallowed up with overmuch sorrow. Wherefore I beseech you that you would confirm your love toward him for so to this end did I write”, and then I think there is another chapter that even says that you are completely clear of the matter. 2 Cor. 7:10, "godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death. For behold this selfsame thing, that ye sorrowed after a godly sort, what carefulness it wrought in you, what clearing of yourselves, what indignation, what fear what vehement desire, what zeal, what revenge! In all things ye have approved yourselves to be clear in this matter." And that’s wonderful . And that's the only reason that that kind of disciplinary action would be used with the thought of helping the person to be restored in fellowship. We would like to love you people back to this fellowship, Dale. That's what we’d like to do.

Dale - well, for one thing this kid is going to definitely find out what the bible is telling me. I'm experiencing things that have never happened to me before, am I to take that with a grain of salt? Or should I in righteous judgment decide that...

Willis - I might tell you something in my experience about two years ago. I had something happen to me that had never happened before. But that made me love this truth all the more and thank God for his patience for me until I got something straightened around in my life by his help. And it had to be his help because I tried many times without it, didn't get it.

Dale - So far it sounds to me like you got it figured out and understand what I'm picking up out of this bible as to true doctrine. It talks about the free gift, it talks about works. You said that works are a result of salvation. Unfortunately, all the workers don 't agree with that .

Willis - ha, ha, I think you would find that if the workers sat down and talked together with it they would agree on it. I haven't talked to a worker that doesn't agree that salvation is by faith and by grace, an illustration I use often is that a duck doesn't swim to make him a duck but a duck swims because he's a duck. You see. That's where our works comes in. And the religious world are always after us that we talk about works for salvation. We do not talk about works for salvation.

Joyce - How come I never knew that?

Dale - Yes, I was going to ask you the very same question. We've been professing and raised in it and we have never understood the grace. Here I was out there trying to work it out, work for my salvation. Why was that?

Willis - ha, ha, I don't know.

Dale - Why have I been given the wrong message. Like I said I've been looking at myself, I'm searching my heart and because of what I could see in myself, I had to look at the influence that made me think the way I did. I have gone to meetings for 30 years and I have desperately been trying and I don't remember anything about grace. I do remember grace being referred to as grease as the substance that makes things go smoother but not just grace of God that covers us for our sins and our weaknesses. And that beautiful thought that salvation is a gift, that's beautiful.

Willis - That is simply beautiful.

Dale - When I realized that, like He said, we love Him because He first loved us, I could never figure out how He loved me. But now I realize to a greater extent all the time the fact that He did love me enough to die for me as a sinner and provide salvation. Now I go forth with I desire to serve him not because I have to but because I want to.

Willis - In hearty fellowship with his people and with his ministry. That's what you want Dale.

Sharon - And the gift comes hand in hand with the order.

Willis - Exactly.

Dale - I don't dispute that.

Joyce - There is absolutely nothing we can do to earn salvation.

Dale - That was another thing that came to me very clearly, that if I want those fruits of the spirit, I'm not going to be able to just up and try to imitate them, they will be gifts as well.

Willis - Exactly. when we give the spirit place in our lives, fruit has to came and, I don't know how to explain it, but you don't put the apple on the tree. It's because it's an apple tree.

Sharon - That's when we submit in the spirit.

Willis - And it comes from that you see. We just learnt a little lesson in grafting since I've been to California. Joyce, we're learning all the time, you know. We've learned things. For three months now, we've been defending the truth to our friends, can you imagine that? Just like we're doing tonight. We're defending the truth to our friends when we should be out defending it to somebody that doesn't understand it. And we have to defend the truth to our friends.

Joyce - It makes you wonder.

Dale - But why are you having to do that? Is it our fault?

Willis - ha, ha, ha

Dale - I mean are you blaming us because that situation is there? Or is it there because we weren't taught?

Willis - We would like to help you further, let's just put it that way. We'd just love to see you helped and enjoying the fellowship with your victory instead of being outside it.

Dale - But I still have to ask you that question. When you said that, are you passing judgment on yourself or on the people for that situation being there?

Willis - I pass it on myself first.

Dale - Because Joyce just said something that is very sobering and that is that we haven't been getting the message and why not?

Dan - Well. most people I've talked to in the fellowship don't understand the mystery of grace, the doctrine of grace, we're saved by grace and it's not something we can earn. It's the contagion of the fellowship to feel that there's something they must do in order to obtain salvation whereas it's just the mark of a Christian to...

Dale - I 'm going to tell you something that really sobered me. My grandmother who was in the faith for many many years did not feel like her sins were forgiven. and she didn't feel like she was saved. Can you believe that?

Willis - Yes, I think I can.

Dale - Well, why is it that?

Willis - Because we have a world and a flesh and a devil to contend with, that's why. If thou be the Son of God, is what he talked to even to God's own Son, if thou be the Son of God.

Dale - Are you saved?

Willis - I have a hope of being saved.

Dale - So you don't feel that you are saved.

Willis - Let me explain it like this to you. I was out in the world floundering out there in the angry waves of the sea of the world and the gospel ship came along and threw out the life line. I took hold of it and was brought into the ship and I'm not to the other side yet. I have to remain in the ship to pet to the other shore. So I have a hope that there's a present and a future aspect to my salvation. Presently I am saved but I have a hope of being saved.

Dale - Didn't Paul have a little bit more confidence in his salvation when he said. "I am confident that He is able to keep that which I’ve committed unto him against that day." He knew he was saved. He knew he had a real relationship...

Willis - But he had to be kept.

Dale - God would keep him though. He knew that God would keep him

Dan - He was confident he had all faith. He said for I am persuaded that neither death. nor life nor all these things would be able to separate me from the love of God.

Willis - That's what we want. I don't want to leave the ship.

Dale - Do you think God would want you to leave the ship?

Willis - No, he doesn't want me to.

Dale - Do you think He'd let you leave the ship? If He had enough love to die for you a sinner, would He actually let you leave the ship?

Willis - But then you’re telling me that no one loses out that comes into the family.

Dale - I'm under the belief that if somebody is truly saved that God will keep them . I didn’t do a study on it. but I've been picking up little hits here and there and I believe that God would keep...

Willis - Did you ever read about the man that was twice dead? Dead in sin, quickened and made alive, and died again. You're talking about eternal security, you talk like you’re talking now.

Dale - I'm talking about making a right stand for Christ and because of it, having a relationship that would never let us fall apart.

Willis - Yes. but we have to be very careful. The religious world has eternal security out there. Once saved always saved and nothing the matter.

Dale - That's not what I'm saying.

Dan - It's not that we're free to run wild. We're not free to do our own thing and take our...

Willis - Well that's what we're trying to say, stay with the ship and get to the other side. We can take ourselves out of that ship.

Russel - Then we weren't saved in the first place.

Willis - Oh. I wouldn’t say that.

Dale - Well I won't talk about that subject...

Willis - It says if a man was dead in sin and was quickened and made alive and died again, twice dead, plucked up by the roots; . . . In Jude.

Dan - Willis, you have made it clear that your belief is that this gospel is necessary before you can be saved. Now would you describe what is the gospel?

Willis - The gospel is the good news of the kingdom of God.

Dan - Just maybe flush that out a little if you would, what the gospel is. See, Russia is being opened up right now and there's a lot of missionaries going in to preach the good news of God and the bible and the good news of Jesus Christ.

Willis - Did the Lord send them?

Dan - Indeed He did.

Willis - Do you think He did.

Dale - Now we can determine who is right and who is wrong. It's interesting. Daniel is saying that he believes that there are others out there and we've heard workers saying it too, that there are others that are right with God too. But I want you to tell me how we can determine a true preacher from a false preacher.

Willis - By their fruits you shall know them.

Dale - That’s exactly right. Now don’t get me wrong, but we were told that it’s not our place to judge others. But it is our responsibility to pass righteous judgment in effort to determine true from false. Therefore we have to look at the fruits and try to decide whether or not the qualities are there that said that these people would be true ministers. If we see something that is not Christ-like, then we have to draw up a conclusion on that don't we?

Willis - I would say that the book of Ephesians gives me five illustrations of this body of Christ or this church or this family of God in the world, and in every place it gives us the place that Jesus had in the illustration. In Eph. ch. 1, He's the chief cornerstone of the foundation; ch. 2, foundation of the spiritual building, the rest of that foundation is the ministry and every child of God is like a living stone in line with Christ and the ministry. He's the elder brother in the family, ch. 3; He's the head of the body, ch. 4; He's the heavenly bridegroom of the heavenly bride. ch. 5; He's the captain of the army. preeminent place in every one of those illustrations.

And we cannot be connected with Christ without being part of the body or part of the building or part of the family or part of the bride or part of the army. We can't be connected with him because that’s where He is placed in each one of these illustrations. We just love that. The ministry is like He said, as my Father has sent me so send I you. That tells me about the conditions. One of the first meetings that ever touched me, I may have been l6 at the time, was about the kind of preacher that Jesus was in the world and that was the conditions that were fulfilled. Then if the tree is, like even if the tree be rooted and its fruit rooted, the tree corrupt and its fruit corrupt, we can't get the right thing from the wrong tree in other words, that's what Jesus taught. We can't gather grapes from thorns or figs from thistles.

Dale - You made a comment earlier that you were disappointed that somewhat of my conclusion was based or influenced by reading another book. Can you tell me, have you read any other books yourself?

Willis - I have seen those books, I haven't read them all but I've seen them.

Dale - Have you read any books besides the bible that has influenced your understanding of the bible to some extent?

Willis - Well, I don't know if I can name one. I read a story of Jesus by Pruden Osler one time, "The Greatest... what is the name of that book... I read that one time, but our text is this word of God and the books I was referring to Dale; are the books that are written by people that were disgruntled with this way.

Dale - Everett Swanson indicated that that was the case with that one girl. But apparently she had good reason to be disgruntled.

Willis - I think Noreen knows her.

Dale - I understand that her children were being molested by the workers.

Dan - You know, Willis, I’ve gone out and tried the spirits so to speak and gone around and looked at a few churches and I’ve seen things that I’ve liked and I’ve seen things that I haven’t liked and what I felt with what I’ve found in Jesus is a joy that I’ve never felt before in my life. I felt that an act and the power of the Holy Spirit in my life and I’ve also felt true repentance like I’ve never felt before and when I sin now I feel a true sorriness but a joy that God will deliver me.

Dale - That's exactly my feelings. I make a mistake and I feel God dealing with, me.

Dan - I feel the love of God now that I never felt before.

Dale - Can that be the devil?

Willis - I'm not prepared to answer that.

Dale - Can you answer one other thing? Can the devil intercept prayers?

Willis - I believe the devil is very powerful, I believe the devil even answers prayers.

Dale - Is that scripturally sound? I mean if this is a party line when we get down on our knees, I don't feel very comfortable. That threatens the one source of help I've got to go to God with. I don't like to hear that. We heard that at special meetings this year and I want to see that in the scriptures before I believe it.

Dan - There's a mass confusion out there and even in the new testament it indicates there were divisions in the church. There were disagreements and misinterpretations, and to know the truth as it is in Jesus, the simplicity of truth is a beautiful thing. What it does for me, it draws me, draws the flesh, draws the spirit to fulfill the fruits of the spirit in my life, the power of the Holy Spirit I can just feel his work now in my life like I've never felt before. It's not always displayed through the flesh, it's not always something that I can express, but it is a peace.

Dale - I prayed for a love for God. I prayed that he would give me a desire to read and love his word, and I was actually beginning to doubt the word of God. Six months ago I was losing faith in the word of God. And it was through a so-called false preacher that my belief in this bible was renewed. What he did was reinforce the scripture. He said the bible was entirely correct word for word from one end to the other and there was no disputing about it. And he proved it to me that this book has things in it that no other book could ever have. It has prophecies in it, records of miracles, prophecies that have been fulfilled, prophecies that are being fulfilled, and prophecies that have yet to be fulfilled and that we see this very day being fulfilled. By the time he got done with me I believed that this bible was the word of God. Could that come from a false preacher?

Willis - I believe It could because Jesus said even of the Pharisees of Jesus day, he said to the people: all they bid you observe, that observe and do, but do not after their works for they say and do not.

Dale - What if they say and do, would you be inclined to think they had something?

Willis - Well, I'd be very... Any person that would teach me from the word of God and teach me to worship in a different way than the scripture teaches me to worship, I would question that.

Noreen - And Dale this year down at the coast, we've had people come back into this fellowship who’ve been out of it for a number of years because they felt we didn't need the ministry, coming back in through the very same door and they have...

Dale - Do they understand salvation through grace and through the blood of Christ?

Noreen - well I don't know.

Dale - Did they come out of false religion back into this way?

Noreen - They went out and started a fellowship of their own. There's nothing out there.

Dale - I wonder if they understand salvation by grace and by the blood of Christ.

Noreen - I think they do. There was nothing there that brought them peace.

Dale - I got that experience, only reversed. I've been professing for 30 years and I haven't got anything. If I got anything, I picked it up in six months. There are some things that I did get, though, a respect for God's word, a respect for God, and those are very important things, and a desire to have the things of God in my life. I just couldn't get them and I think that that's an indication that I'm not right. So I'm drawing conclusions, and as I said before I'm watching the work that’s going on in my life and that’s how I’m going to determine whether or not I’m still headed in the right direction. If I in fact continue to see the things happening in my life that have been happening in the last six months, then it’s going to be awfully hard for anybody to persuade me that I’m headed in the wrong direction.

Willis - Where are you going for fellowship, Dale?

Dale - Well, it says where 2 or 3 are met together there am I.

Willis - So you have your own fellowship.

Dale - We talk about the bible now more than we ever have in our life. We have fellowship in this home on a daily basis. We are talking about the bible. I have never been able to talk about the bible like I do now. I feel like I said: my yoke is easy and my burden is light, I don't feel the inhibitions. I had things that I felt God was putting on my heart that I should speak in the meeting but I didn't feel comfortable saying them because there's been differences of opinion and I had no intention of stirring up people. My mother has the same problem, she just mentioned it the other day. She gave her testimony and she just felt terrible because nobody else had the same testimony as she did. well, that isn't right. I've always had a fear and she's had a fear, I don't know about the rest of you, a fear that my testimony might not conform to those that were in authority. Is that right? Are we supposed to read this bible and get a revelation from God?

Willis - I think that's what we'd like to have. It says a psalm or a doctrine or a revelation. We don't always get a revelation but it's something like bread to our soul that we can share with others.

Dale - we just got some babes down the road, new in the faith, and I have the feeling that like my service was not unto God for 30 years, it was unto the workers and unto the friends, that theirs is like that. When I hear the friends glorifying the workers, I don't feel comfortable. I want to hear about Jesus, I want to hear about what a great sacrifice Jesus made. I don't want to hear about the sacrifice the workers made because it's a drop in the bucket. It's nothing compared to what Jesus did. And it belittles Jesus to think that we as man can make a mere sacrifice like we do and get glory and they're glorifying workers and I don't believe that's right. And yet where does he get it from, these are new babes that are getting up there and constantly talking about what a wonderful thing it is to know the workers and basically glorifying workers. Is that tight?

Willis - Well, Paul encouraged it.

Dale - He Said respect them for the works sake.

Willis - Esteem them very highly in love for the work that they do, and that's not putting them ahead of Jesus.

Dale - We seem to hear more about the workers and this way than we do about the sacrifice.

Willis - Which explains it, an interesting thing to me, is there someone in this room that wrote me a letter recently?

Dale - No.

Willis - They were telling me the very same thing that you're telling me.

Dale - You're kidding. Well I know it wasn't out of our household.

Willis - whoever it is didn't sign their name. I get lots of letters like that. And other workers do too. And anyone that couldn't sign their name to something they've written must have misgivings about it.

Dale - No, I'11 tell you what. This is a beautiful way. We love the form, we want to be right with God, and we're willing to stand up to it regardless of the repercussions. We realize there's a great sacrifice. we've been in this way for 30 years. We have friends in this way. My mother said she's not going to have any questions about whether she's for me or against me, she said she's going to be for God. I don't mind. I realize if I stand up for what I believe is right I'm going to lose relationships that were very very valuable to me but for the sake of truth I'm willing for that.

Willis - You could be deceived, Dale, you could be.

Dale - well at this point I'm really trying to figure it out. I'm trying the spirits just like it mentions here, I'm examining myself....."Examine yourself whether ye be in the faith."

Willis - But you're examining something else also.

Dale - what's that?

Willis - You're examining this way.

Dale - I have to. If I'm going to examine myself I ...

Willis - You cannot say that you're examining yourself...

Dale - I'm doing both. Remember I told you that by examining myself I was in fact caused to go to the influence that has been part and parcel of what I was made of. Whether it be my upbringing, whether it be the people I associated with or whether it be the workers that preached to me.

Willis - If someone brought me a book and I laid it beside the bible and the bible was inspired and this book is not inspired, it's written by a disgruntled person, which one would I follow, which one would I believe.

Dale - But you misunderstand me. I never set the bible aside. What we use is the bible, the bible is the final word, That is the final word, and if what they say in those books cannot be backed up by the bible then I'm certainly not interested.

Willis - But Jehovah Witnesses people claim the same thing.

Dan - Their bible is a different translation.

Willis - But they claim the same thing, Seven Day Adventists claim the same thing, Mormons claim the same thing, and all have their reference to the word of God. You know it's a very desperate thing and I'll just go back to Matthew 7.

Dale - Willis, let me ask you a question. This very bible that they use to support their way can be used to prove them wrong, right?

Willis - Right.

Dale - And you know that goes for any faith including this way.

Willis - That's why we have had to defend the truth to our friends the last three months that's what we've been doing. We've been out of our of our field, denied the privilege of preaching the gospel, to defend the truth. You think about this now, this is what's going to happen, this isn't a possibility but this is going to happen. Matt. 7, Not everyone that says unto me Lord, Lord, shall enter the kingdom, but he that doeth the will of my Father." Matt. 7:21 , "Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And I will profess unto them, I never knew you:”

Dale - very sobering. You know what Willis, that includes you.

Willis - Exactly. I've checked that with myself, I've checked that with this way, I've checked the foundation of this ministry, I've checked the foundation of the fellowship, and I'm very thankful that I believe it more today than I did 44 years ago when I began preaching this gospel. And this is producing a united fellowship around the world. I can go to countries where I don't even know the language and the love of God binds us to those people. It's a marvelous thing.

Dan - But other faiths say the same thing.

Willis - ha, ha, I'll tell you what other faiths do. One of our friends was talking to a United Church member and they said we can do the same thing. So this United Church person went down to Ontario and got the address of the minister of the particular church in the area, knocked on the door, and a man came to the door. This person said I'm so and so and I'm a member of the United Church. The man said so what and shut the door.

Dale - So that's the United Church. But there are a lot of faiths out there that do have the kind of feeling that we've got. This world is full of false religion, I realize that.

Willis - And you know what, you and I have the responsibility, and a great responsibility to determine what it is.

Dale - You're right. Let's get back to the fruits. Ye shall know them by the fruits.

Rowena - It doesn't depend on just what church it is, it depends a lot on the minister.

Dale - Well it must, if what you've been telling me is true, maybe if you were my minister for all these 30 years I might have had it right.

Willis - ha, ha, no, I wouldn't say that.

Dale - But something is not right. She had the same experience that I did.

Willis - There's a ministry and a minister, and there's quite a difference, and we're talking about a ministry.

Dale - But you're sounding like everybody agrees in this ministry.

Willis - On the fundamentals they are agreed. we have unity in the fundamentals, we have liberty in the non-essentials, we have love in all things.

Dan - Fundamentals of the identity of Jesus too?

Willis - Yes, sure.

Dale - They don't agree.

Dan - It looks to me like there's more than one opinion like some believe that Jesus is 100% God and 100% man.

Dale - I can give some workers that have said that...

Willis - That's interesting. I think I'm even quoted in one of those books you know. And I can take you right to the spot where the lady came and talked to me and never got permission to use my words in print and scatter them all over the world, but my name is in print and maybe you folks have seen it.

Dale - No, I haven't seen it. But here, some of them are teaching that Jesus is God, Truitt and Bob accept the deity of Jesus, Therold believes that if we truly believe nothing can take it away. Dan Hilton says that you can lose it. Some of these basic fundamentals are not being consistent. That bothers me.

Willis - ha, ha, That doesn't trouble me at all.

Dale - It troubles me because I'm trying to take direction from these people and we have been given to believe it's from one source which is God. You say that the basic fundamentals are consistent amongst all the workers, is that because you got it from God and they got it from God or is it because you have workers' meetings to decide what the fundamentals are.

Willis - Our workers' meetings are not those kind of meetings.

Noreen - We've had workers come from other ends of the world and we've never met them before and they preach the same thing. There's never been a meeting.

Willis - 62 workers were at a convention one year and another minister from another denomination came. The owner of the convention was showing the man around the grounds, and he told him that we had 62 ministers here some from the Orient, some from Europe, some from Canada some from several States, and the man said it must be quite a job to get all those ministers here and have their messages rehearsed so they would blend. We never even thought of such a thing.

Dale - Have you not heard a worker though have a part in the meeting and have someone get up and contradict him and just block his light? I have.

Willis - I like this here in Eccles. a very special verse to me. I was at convention one year and this is what we proved. And those differences ha, ha, that are troubling you, that's not why we're held together at all. The words of the wise are as goads (you know what a goad is, the sticks the master uses to encourage his oxen along the road, you see them in the Orient and India) they are as goads and as nails. One to encourage us forward and one to bind us together, fastened by the masters assemblies which are given from one shepherd. That's a beautiful thing for us to come to convention, we’ll have workers now from Australia, New Zealand, India, Europe, the Orient, US, Canada, and we'll hear things that urge us forward in this pathway and bind us closer together in fellowship. A beautiful thing.

Dale - By their fruits ye shall know them. Is there any workers molesting kids and sister workers that you're aware of?

Willis - Not that I'm aware of.

Dale - That you’re absolutely not aware of?

Willis - I know of some molesting cases but I don't know of any sadist workers molesting children. Yes I do know of one incidence.

Dale - That one girl that wrote that one book that's what she was so upset about. Can you tell me what the status of that person is that was doing it? Is it being covered up or has the person been exposed and dealt with.

Willis - Yes, I think it's dealt with. I haven't seen anything recent on it.

Dale - There was two families involved and when they went to the workers the workers chose not to take corrective action and instead made them feel that they were in the wrong, and all they were doing was supporting truth. You know nothing about that?

Willis - I know about one person, I don't know if it's the one you're talking about.

Dale - Well we were hearing that these same things were going on up in Alaska.

Willis - Yes, you hear lots of rumors.

Dale - That wasn't the case in Alaska?

Willis - It was not so.

Dan - God's only true way, his ministry and his mannerisms are unchanging but there are some areas that are a little hard to understand. If we believe this form is the way to salvation or that by belonging to a form and to God's order so to speak will lead us to salvation, then how do you explain the areas that are changing like the Glen valley convention grounds that was built up. And for that purpose alone were built for convention. It isn't any different from a kingdom hall or a church.

Willis - Those are all dual purpose buildings....

Dan - So are any other churches dual purpose buildings .

Willis - They store machinery in them and hay and that kind of thing.

Dale - But they do activities in churches so they're dual purpose too. They have rummage sales, they have social events, they do things. Glen valley bothers me because I have that firm commitment that this way doesn't build buildings for church and this way doesn't change. It's things like that that affect and destroy my faith in this way, not in God. Because I'm given to believe over the years one thing, and then wow I hear something that doesn't line up, whether it be what a worker says, or what's being done, those things shatter your faith because I had the simple faith that this way is not changing, but it is. Don't you feel that it is?

Willis - No, 1 don't feel it is.

Dan - Jesus never changed and the way has never changed. Form does change, it's different now than it was in the apostolic ages.

Willis - We wear different clothes.

Dan - We have different buildings, different mannerisms, customs, different hair styles, everything changes.

Rowena - Jesus never changes.

Dan - Jesus said I am the way, the truth, and the life, no man cometh unto the father but by me. He's not changing.

Dale - We are following the example of Christ, right? Why are we not healing like Jesus did? That would really prove whether we were right or wrong wouldn't it?

Willis - ha, ha, I don't think so. I can take you to where the devil is going to do something that we haven't seen yet, give life to an image. He can make fire come down from heaven like Elijah did in the old testament to prove he was the true prophet, and the devil is going to do that. The physical miracle was just granted to the original 12 and Paul, the privilege of working a special miracle but not always, he had to leave his own companion sick at times. It was never to be continued and when the new testament church was established, physical healing was not a part of the ministry after that. Timothy never healed, Paul did on special occasion, John .....

Dale - But there are things that were done in Jesus day, like we believe that the way to believe is following the example of Jesus to the letter, but there are things that Jesus did that you're not doing. One is healing, what's a few more?

Joyce - Matt. 10

Willis - That's the limited commission Joyce. That wasn't the unlimited commission. The limited commission was only to the Jewish people. They weren't to go into the city of the Samaritans and into the way of the Gentiles. Only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Dan - Philip left for a short period to minister to the eunuch before he returned home.

Willis - They were all scattered from Jerusalem and everyone went everywhere preaching. And when the persecution ceased these people settled down. Philip had four daughters that prophesied, they went all over.

Dean - In that last commission before Jesus rose at the end of Matthew, He told them to go and teach all nations but He didn't give them any other conditions. He didn't say to go by two, he didn't say to go homeless or to...

Dale - And that would be a perfect opportunity to make that clear.

Willis - Why would you question it Dale?

Dan - Why would I question it? Because I have a different feeling, and a much more enriched understanding.

Willis - You mean you would justify the church system.

Dan - I'll tell you what I would justify. I would justify prayer to God that is unbiased and unaffected by any other preconceived notions in the human mind. Prayer to God, the simple asking that may God's will be done, is the only thing I can justify.

Willis - You see Paul himself said even to this present hour I both hunger and thirst and am naked and buffeted and have no certain dwelling place. He fulfilled the conditions.

Dan - Paul also had a job, he worked, he was a tent maker.

Willis - We've done that too.

Dan - So was Peter married.

Willis - Peter's wife went with him in the work.

Dale - That could have been a very good thing. Why don't we have married workers?

Willis - We do.

Dean - This could be a rumor, but I heard recently that a young married couple offered for the work but they were refused because they were married. It was suggested that it would be better not to because they were married.

Dale - And in some cases it would be better if they were married.

Ray - Then they could understand the struggles that the rest of us go through that are married.

Willis - If you folks would like to change the order, that would be fine.

Dale - No, we're not trying to change the order, we're trying to establish in our mind what is the order. And we wonder. Are you putting more emphasis on the form than on the blood of Christ? Like you can actually be found preaching truth but emphasizing the wrong thing. Are we putting too much emphasis on this form? Is that possible?

Rowena - It can be truth but unbalanced.

Willis - I wouldn’t say it's not possible, no. We try to have a balanced ministry alright.

Dean - You know I have a great respect for all of you folks that are in the ministry who are giving up everything but I don't see that it's a requirement in the scriptures. I think it's a wonderful thing, it may bring glory to God which is important, but I don't see it as a requirement in the scripture.

Willis - We do, Dean, we do.

Dale - But the commissions cast a bit of a question on that. We can understand the first commission that Jesus sent them out two and two together, but the question is was the second commission different? Was it relaxed on this issue of two and two together? It would almost appear that it was.

Willis - Well we can read about workers together in the Acts of the apostles and workers together in writing their letters....

Dale - It's a good thing. We're not saying it isn't right or it isn't good...

Willis - But you’re questioning it.

Dale - But we're saying, are we over-emphasizing it.

Dan - The question is whether or not it's a requirement for salvation. It's very important.

Willis - It's not a requirement for salvation, it's the way the Lord planned it and we just have to fit into it and we don't question his planning.

Dan - I don't question the form, it's a beautiful form as Dean said but to say it's a requirement or it's necessary to belong to this form in order to be saved is a big statement.

Willis - You’re saying that , Dan, we're not saying that, you’re saying that, and the religious world is saying that.

Dan - I'm saying that Jesus Christ is the way, that’s what I’m saying.

Dale - That’s what I’m saying.

Dan - I'm not saying that a form has anything to do with salvation.

Willis - Can you go to one of the other churches and have fellowship?

Dan - I certainly can.

Willis - You can.

Dale - You see it says all scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction, and righteousness. This is the book that we are using to try and determine truth and we are doing it in a objective manner. And I'm just saying that there are things that have happened in this way that have caused me to question my stand and the stand of others, even though they may say they have a good firm stand. My faith in this way has been shook based on what I see which is the fruits of the spirit. I think that righteous judgment, that I have a right to pass that kind of judgment, not that l would criticize them or think I was any better than them, but that I have to somehow decide what is right and what is wrong.

Willis - I don't think we need to discuss it anymore tonight, Dale.

Dan - I wouldn't say that I can go to any other church and have fellowship as you would say but I can have fellowship with those who believe in what Paul emphasizes in the epistles and what Jesus emphasizes and those that believe that Jesus Christ is indeed the way and that is where salvation is found. I have fellowship with those that are in unity on that.

Dale - We all realize that this world is full of lots of confusion, and divisions; there’s all kinds of different orders and in the majority of cases it's false religion.

Willis - The synagogue system of Jesus day taught people to hate Jesus, so the cleverest trick that the enemy has ever played is to take the precious name of Jesus and attach it to the synagogue system.

Dan - That's what the Catholics have done.

Willis - And every other church with them.

Dan - Not every other church, no.

Willis - She's the mother.

Dale - Why is she the mother?

Willis - She is, she happens to be.

Dale - But why are you saying she's the mother?

Willis - Because the scripture says that.

Dale - It doesn't say that Catholics are the mother of false religion.

Willis - No? Babylon, the mother of harlots and abomination to the end, the untrue bride.

Dale - That's why it's so vitally important that. we find out whether or not William Irvine started this, because if he did, you're in the exact same category as the Catholics. That is the very issue, and that's what makes that so vitally important. I have to ask this question. We have record of the word of God all through this bible right through to revelations, beautiful isn't it, inspired by God these words to be written down. Since the year 1900 we have letters to indicate that this fellowship existed but between 1900 and this book we have no letters to indicate it.

Willis - Between Malachi and Matthew we have no record for 400 years there.

Dale - Why is it that communication by letter was halted?

Willis - Just because, I have a verse that you just finished reading: All scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for doctrine, for proof, for correction, for instruction, for righteousness, that the man of God may be complete (that's what the word perfect means there, complete) thoroughly furnished unto all good works. we don't need any more, we don't need any repetition.

Dale - OK, but we've got record of letters and notes written by workers and recorded from conventions and special meetings. Why don't we have evidence of this way before the 1900's?

Willis - Because I don't know if I could find it between 1900 and back, some people have. Somebody told me just the other day that there are records in the library (we have a friend in Ottawa, a professor of history, a scanner ) and he has seen records in the different centuries right through and I firmly believe this Dale that somewhere and somehow, and I don't know where and I don't know how, but somewhere and somehow this seed of faith has been preserved.

Dale - Oh I know it has too, but you're saying that it has to be in this form.

Willis - I'm saying it will follow just what the scripture tells me. It will follow that order. And that's not for salvation, that's because of salvation.

Dale - Well that's a new one from a worker I'll tell you.

Willis - Well I've believed that all my preaching days.

Dean - Knowing how human nature is to hang on to things. I'm surprised that out of the hundreds and thousands of friends, that I have never seen any record of any letters or conventions or anything before 1899. I'm surprised that not one single person has, maybe it's in their family or they had friends and somebody has these letters from before 1899. The odds are so great.

Dale - Yes, because we loved them and we collected them. I remember when I first professed I loved reading the notes and gems etc. and I was looking for that stuff.

Willis - You see that doesn't trouble me a bit, Dean, it doesn't trouble me one bit.

Dale - Well it does us because you've already insinuated that the Catholic church, we know that they were probably the first ones to go wrong, they were the first ones to organize religion...

Willis - In the name of Christ.

Dale - That's right, and actually deceived people. They're probably the most corrupt organization and the most powerful organization on the face of the earth. And they have infiltrated just about every religion there is but when you mentioned that, my argument was that exact same argument when I argued for this way.

Willis - So where are you going to go Dale? Where are you going to go?

Dale - Where am I going to go?

Willis - Are you going to start something of your own?

Dale - No that isn't my intention.

Dan - This was started.

Sharon - What do you mean, what was started.

Dan - Well if we were going to start something of our own the idea is to understand the bible. The idea is to understand what Jesus wants us to understand and starting something of our own is really inconsequential.

Dale - I don't have any intentions of starting anything.

Dan - Understanding form is one thing, understanding salvation is another.

Dale - Yes, I think we're putting far too much emphasis on form.

Dean - We're not starting anything.

Dale - We're trying to serve the Lord.

Dean - God's Son died for us and it is finished like He said. There's nothing else to do, there's nothing else for us to do.

Dale - There's no laws, that's the thing, we're making up laws just like the Pharisees did. They got into this idea. There were laws in the old testament but they made extra laws, they made burdens like you wouldn't believe. Is it at all possible that we could be doing the same thing? It says that Jesus does not want people zealous of good works.

Willis - He doesn't?

Dale - Titus 2:14

Willis - "He gave himself for us to redeem unto us a peculiar people, zealous of good works."

Dan - God forbid that I should glory save in the cross.

Willis - Why do we break bread every Sunday morning?

Dale - Why was it that I was asked not to take part in the bread and wine?

Sharon- Dale, that's not correct.

Dale - Well, it's pretty well correct because it was implied.

Sharon - Dale it is not correct.

Dale - Well it was implied.

Sharon - That was your decision.

Dale - You know Sharon we say a lot of things without being said. She said that I would be drinking the bread and wine to my damnation. So obviously she's not in agreement with me taking the bread and wine. Titus 2:14 "Who gave himself for us that he might redeem us from all iniquity and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works."

Willis - Zealous of them.

Rowena - Good works as a result of being saved.

Willis - That's what we've been trying to say all night.

Dean - It's interesting that I've sat through 3000 hours under the sound of the gospel and that's not what I heard.

Dale - Neither did I hear it.

Dan - I didn't hear a lot of emphasis on the cross either.

Rowena - Most emphasis I find was on meetings in the home and workers going out two by two. That's what was stressed.

Willis - The reason for that is because that is so different from every other religious organ. That's why it sticks out like a sore thumb. You can hear about the blood of Christ in the Catholic church at mass every day, you can hear about the blood of Christ in the Baptist church, you can hear about it all the time.

Dan - OK, but does that lower its value though? It doesn't lower its value at all. It's still the most important thing, number one. I was never taught that. It was never emphasized in my life and now it is beautiful.

Willis - We're sorry if you didn't get that.

Dale - Well I know a lot of people who didn’t get it. I like what you're telling me but I'm asking you why we didn't get the message for the last thirty years. Is it our fault? Is it because we didn't want it, is it because we were weren't willing, or is it because we were just ornery. I don't know, we didn't get the message and I was desperately trying to see the works of God fulfilled in my life.

Willis - Anyway we shall pray for you and I wonder if I should tell you about a woman before we leave, who was looking upon this just like you folks are now, and feeling that we had corrupted it so badly that God was using her and raising her up to restore and preserve the wonderful truth according to the bible. And she influenced others to go with her, and after a little while she realized she needed a ministry or a minister is all she wanted, so she wrote a letter to all the workers she knew overseas, she, she didn't write the local ones cause they were all corrupt, and asked that one would come and be her minister. I don't know if she even got an answer to her letter but she continued on in her own way and with those she influenced, and they had their own little time together. Time has gone now, it must be 20 years and she saw a very fine man that she influenced out of this fellowship die out of the fellowship. And now she's coming back to the fellowship and wondering if God can forgive her and bring her into a living relationship with him and his body. And you folks can very easily be taking that course, and we worry about you.

Dale - Well we're doing what we feel God expects us to do and that is trying the spirits, searching our hearts, and drawing conclusions on it.

Willis - We hope you don't draw too many people out with you and fulfill Acts 20.

Dan - I don't think that man can destroy God's work.

Dale - I don't think so either. I think that's scripturally backed up. If we truly have salvation through Christ a book that you read off the shelf or by somebody who's false is not going to destroy your relationship with God.

Willis - Will you be distributing the books, Dale?

Dale - I am searching my heart and trying the spirits and if I was to conclude that this way was definitely wrong I would definitely fight for the truth. There's no question about it. This is salvation.

Willis - You could very easily get to that point.

Dale - I think it's absolutely essential. Like he said personal relationships don’t matter. I am going to find out by reading this bible whether or not I am right with God and by what God does with me.

Willis - when Paul called the elders together in Acts 20, he said, after my departure grievous wolves will come in among us not sparing the flock and also of your own selves shall men arise speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.

Dale - But we're not interested in that. We are interested in drawing closer to Jesus.

Willis - But I see quite a following here tonight.

Dan - A following after what? A following after Jesus Christ?

Willis - I don't see that.