September 1997

I still qualify as one of the "friends."  But I do not think I alone have the
love of Christ, follow Jesus, have the truth, understand scripture, or
anything else. I know that I have so much to learn!  And you folks [on the List]
are sure helping.  One of the things I value so much about this forum is all the
learning I am getting.  I am beginning to be able to read the Bible with such
a different attitude now.  I have been close to people who would be labeled
"outsiders" and have seen what I truly believed was a deep love for God.
About three years ago I listened to a woman sobbing, trying to tell how she
felt so far from God when she prayed lately.  When I saw that, I could not
believe that her spirituality was only a figment of her imagination, or that
God wouldn't care too much about her unless she someday professed.

I am curious about why no one has stayed in this group and stuck to their
guns, their beliefs.  Why don't people stay and try to promote changes of
honesty and openness, instead of leaving it to the liars and pretenders?  If
it is because you just get sick when you go to meeting and hear things that
don't jibe, I can understand.  And I know some of you have been treated
really rotten.  But I think there are other reasons.  Do you feel that it is
just basically wicked, or something?  I am not being sassy, I really want to
know.

I don't believe the ministry has to be 2X2 and all that, but I can see some
logic.  It makes it easier for them to "serve."  They don't have the day to
day problems and worries that the rest of us have.  And I never could have
gone to any other church the past 22 years, because I had NO money for it.  I
know, you don't usually HAVE to pay, but I would have felt awful not putting
in my little envelope when the basket went by.  Once in awhile I could have,
but not 10% every week.  No way.  So that's one thing I've been glad for.
Wow.  That sounds pretty bad, doesn't it?  "I went to meetings because they were
basically free."  I really did do this with a whole heart at one time, and
money had nothing to do with it.  I wanted nothing more than to raise my
children to become workers.  But nowadays, when I sometimes consider checking
out another religion, I think about that collection plate, and about the
preacher standing up there talking about projects and missions and the need
for more moola, and it really turns me off.

I do feel though, that if the workers give up families and homes in order to
be able to better serve, then they really ought to get around more.  Seems
they tend to sort of "live" at certain addresses.  They don't spend a lot of
time with people who don't have nice places and/or outgoing personalities.
That was my first great disappointment.  The workers were at my folks lots
while I was growing up, and I took it for granted that they would be around
my place a lot when I had kids, but they weren't and it really hurt.  It's
okay now.  I'd just as soon have it that way, as I am too busy.  Just in case
any of you workers are reading this.  : )

For me, for now, I am still in.  I absolutely despise the man-made rules and
traditions because I believe Jesus hated such things, but there are people
here I love.  And I believe most of these people are doing what they think is
best.  And they are serving God to the very best of their ability.  I halfway
expect there to come a day when I can no longer maintain this precarious
in-between position but for now, here I am.

With appreciation for all of you,

Connie Heyne

Dear Connie,

Some on this list still go to meeting and I trust they are sticking to
their guns about their beliefs.  Personally, I left because I did not
get fed in the meetings.  The public meetings were almost always about
the ministry and how denying myself means excepting Jesus (incorrectly
also known as "the workers").  A lot of people in the fellowship
meetings would speak about how wonderful the way and how wonderful the
workers are.  That does not feed.  Well, it feeds, but it does not feed my
heart.  Ego/pride and self-righteousness could easily be fed, but I did
not want them fed.

I feel the workers' way is just something God allows.  The people are
mostly deluded, deceived, or asleep.  The deluded are the ones who do
not believe in the Christ - they believe in man's (their own) religion
and they search for one that pretty closely fits their agenda.  The
deceived are the ignorant who are not understanding the scripture and
the Holy Spirit.  The asleep are those who do not believe a lot of what
is held to - the perfect way, the only way, the true ministry, the
commandments of man - yet they do nothing about these deceits and other
errors and lies and immoral deeds of the workers' way.  They simply
justify their staying in the way through "it works for me", "I am fed",
"I enjoy the spirit of the meetings", and so forth.

I believe I was deceived.  I did not know and I wanted to believe the
workers' way as being Jesus' way.  After about eight years - with two in
the work - I had experienced enough to realize that the "perfect way"
was not perfect and was not God's way and I left.  Afterwards I came to
understand more about the hold the workers have on the friends and more
about the hold God should have on me.  I read books about recovery,
Christian books and anti-Christian/Bible books, corresponded with some
current members and some exmemebers of the workers' way, and of course
did a lot of Bible reading and praying.

Love, Greg

Connie wrote
>>  I don't believe the ministry has to be 2X2 and all that, but I can
see some logic.  It makes it easier for them to "serve."  They don't
have the day to day problems and worries that the rest of us have. <<

Yes, all of that is true.  The workers have a wonderful freedom to serve, 
but they do not use that freedom correctly - even as you wrote later
on about their selectiveness in who they really love (or at least decide
to give their presence to).  But all this freedom is not really
necessary.  I know of people who live busy working lives (some on this
list!) who are able to serve their fellow man.

Connie wrote
>> And I never could have gone to any other church the past 22 years,
because I had NO money for it.  I know, you don't usually HAVE to pay,
but I would have felt awful not putting in my little envelope when the
basket went by.  Once in awhile I could have, but not 10% every week.
No way.  So that's one thing I've been glad for. <<

Ever read/hear about the woman who gave all her living?  No ten percent
there.

What you are doing is concentrating on the negative aspects of or the
negative twists from the workers on the churches.  The contention is
"the worldly Christians HAVE to give",  "the worldly Christians are
BUYING their *salvation*", and even so much more.  Yet, some of what
they contend can be true.  However, you (we) should know these things
for our own selves.  Also, we should realize that the loving Christian
gives what she/he can because they realize that the mission of the
church is good and is needed.

Love, Greg

Hi Connie!!

I felt compelled to respond to you, because I am so glad to see you here with
us, and because I sense such an innocent honesty from you...you really
deserve some answers!!

I agree so much with what Greg posted to you.  When I hear things like you
wrote, it makes my heart so sad that the 2x2 people are being fed such lies
about other churches!  So I guess this is the subject of your post that I
will address.

You stated you felt that you could not go to other "worldly" churches due to
the "10%" rule, or the obligation of having to give money every time you go.
I cannot TELL you how much of a 2x2 brainwash this is!!  Let me explain.

To be able to tithe, that is, give 10% of your income to your church is
something many people strive to be able to do, or actually do.  But this is
the calling of their heart.  This is their MINISTRY.  Not everyone is able do
this, NOR IS IT EVER EXPECTED...not in a true Christian church, anyway.
Everyone in God's family has different gifts.  My husband and I are lucky if
we can give ten bucks to our church per week...we just don't have the money. But do you know what we do?  We give our time...we perform in the services
on the worship teams.  I am a soloist who has been blessed by God with a
pretty great voice...this is MY ministry.  We have heard people say many
times how grateful they are for the music ministry and those that contribute
their time, effort and talents.  This is just another of God's great
blessings!!  No one knows we don't give the church a ton of money...it just
doesn't matter.  We give what the Lord has given us.  There are SO many other
areas, too...childcare, teachers in Sunday School, activity coordinators,
people on prayer chains who pray for the concerns of those in the church,
pastors....the list goes on and on.

I just wanted you to know, Connie, that there is NO Christian church that
will not welcome you...no matter how much money you have!!  Money is not the
issue...souls are the issue.  Just the other day, I was having a conversation
with my mother, a current 2x2, who stated vehemently that "many in worldly
churches are only there to give their money because they feel that their
money is buying their salvation"....oh how sad this made me!!!  How could she
judge such a personal thing between and believer and God??  How on earth
would she know this person's ministry, or their feeling of burden for another
ministry that may need financial help? I felt like asking her what was buying
HER salvation?  Her long hair?  Her dresses?  Her lack of a TV?  Her little
church in a home?  The workers?

When I see those people who DO have a lot of money giving a lot of money to
the church, it makes me rejoice.  They are giving to the Lord of their
bounty.  Mike and I don't have a lot of money, so we are giving to the Lord
what we DO have.  I cannot tell you how he has blessed us for it.

I just thought you would like to know more about this!!  So nice to have you
on the list!!  By the way, I have added you to my AOL buddy list...maybe I
will drop you an Instant Message just to say "hello" the next time your name
pops up that you are online!!

Much Love,

Julie Benac

Dear Connie H.

This is to add my welcome to you with the others, who have expressed some
very good things already.  In your comments and thoughts, to my mind, you
expressed some valid concerns and issues.

In searching out the truth regarding giving, and a "tithe" and what it was
used for under the old covenant, there was much that "opened" my eyes.

There were 12 tribes of which one, the tribe of Levi had both chosen and
been chosen to care for the temple, the "things" of the Lord, and fill the
office of the priesthood.  When the "Children of Israel" entered the
promised land, the tribe of Levi alone was to have NO physical part of the
inheritance of the land.

There was no "social security".  God had promised to care for all, as all
kept His commandments.

The "tithe" was not established in the form of "money", rather to establish
a means whereby the tribe of Levi might "freely" serve the rest of the
children of Israel who were blessed with great growth....as they all
"inherited the land", and grew in substance.  It was part of how God was
fulfilling His promise to care for and bless "all".

From that 10% of the giver's "increase", much also went to the necessary
things for the care of the tabernacle, and later the temple, as the tribe of
Levi filled their priestly duties.

Now, I certainly have NO desire to discredit any who wish to give 10% to the
Lord, as Abraham did (OR MORE!) in giving in one recorded incident to
Melchizadek!  As Greg highlighted, one Lady's "two mites" constituted "all
of her substance" and was a LOT more than 10%.

What should also be pointed out is that the 10% tithe was established for
the support of one tribe amongst twelve who had no other means of acquiring
"possessions" in the promised land.  It was NOT for a small group of people
amongst a mass of people.

Following the new testament teachings, giving unselfishly is very very
important.  Doing whatsoever we do as if it were unto the Lord, is included
there.  Salvation is not a function of giving and wealth.  The wealthy have
NO right to impose burdens nor guilt upon the poor!   10% from those with
much in abundance is NOT the same as 10% of a poor person's income, which is
NOT their increase of substance.

To teach for today any "restoration" of, or "return" to the tithe of the
old Testament that was to be given only to the tribe of Levi (in accordance
with the over-simplification I have stated above) is flatly in error.  Many
do NOT make such error, and are NOT to be faulted because of those who do!

With Christian Love,

Dennis

Dear Connie H... welcome from Connie J!!
 
You wrote:
 About three years ago I listened to a woman sobbing, trying to tell
how she felt so far from God when she prayed lately.  When I saw that,
 I could not believe that her spirituality was only a figment of her
imagination, or that God wouldn't care too much about her unless she
someday professed.

***Isn't it amazing how God works all the details out to help us come
to a greater understanding?  Was that the first time such a thought
had entered your mind, or was it further confirmation of a thought
that was already germinating in your heart?  Did you know this woman?
Do you still have contact with her?  Maybe God put her in that
situation, just so YOU could see her great love for God.  Though we
won't always know in this life WHY certain "trials" come our way,  it
might be encouraging for her, now, to KNOW such a purpose might have
been the reason on God's heart for her distressful situation at that
time.

You asked another often asked question:
I am curious about why no one has stayed in this group and stuck to
their guns, their beliefs.  Why don't people stay and try to promote
changes of honesty and openness....

***Dear Connie, what has to be misunderstood or overlooked by those
who ask this question is the YEARS of struggle and prayer and ache
and questioning and tears, and discussion etc, etc, etc, that most
often has fallen in between our  first concerns and our leaving...
years when we did just as you said,  "stuck to our guns and tried to
promote changes" within the group!!!
        I believed the group's claim that it was the ONE RIGHT WAY... I
loved having a place in it  I desired with my whole heart to please
God and one day be welcomed into heaven.  I loved the people dearly
(and still do!)  But... promoting change in the group?... how about
this for consideration:
        If my calculations are correct, my Mom's parents professed for 59
and 69 years.  Grandpa was an elder and they had one or more meetings
a week in their home for the greater part of those years.  They were
well-respected, "hearty" friends, but they NEVER accepted the words
of a worker as being "the law" if they had different convictions in
their own heart.  They spoke out against what they perceived to be
wrong, injustice, etc.  They lived and taught their children to live
according to GOD's word and plan (as they understood it) and the
conviction of their hearts, not in blind conformity to ANY man...
that's a lot of years of "trying to promote changes"!!!  What was the
result,?  IMO, the focus on the externals and the judgment, and the
control over the friends by the workers got WORSE over time, not
better.
        Then, there were my folks...  They were in their 60's when they left
the group and had both been professing for over 50 years.  Again,
they were "hearty" professing people... looked up to be many.  Dad
was an elder for many years, he furnished a car for the workers for
years and we had workers in our home on a VERY regular basis all of
my growing up years.  My parents followed the training and example of
Mom's parents (maybe Dad's parents, too?... they died before I was
born, so I can't say.)  During all those professing years they were
faithful to their convictions and tried to promote truth and change
whenever things didn't look right... as with my grandparents, that's
a long time of "sticking to their guns", yet again... there was no
noticeable change, unless it was for the worse.
        Then there was me... I professed for 23 years... attempting to live
in the same way that my heritage had prepared me for.  Connie, also
built into your question above is the attitude that in leaving, we
chose "the easy way out."  What do you think, Connie?  You're still
in the group and apparently believing you need to stay there...
sticking to your guns and promoting change.  MANY of us have been in
your shoes in the past... and until YOU come to the place where you
KNOW you can't stay, I believe you are just where you need to be...
and, maybe you CAN effect change in some individuals' lives even if
you can't change the system.
        Yet, even while that may be what you are feeling at this point,
still... you are on this list... listening, asking questions and
wondering about these things...  So, I ask you... are the questions
and the heart issues you are trying to deal with honestly today EASY??
  You wrote:  "I halfway expect there to come a day when I can no
longer maintain this precarious in-between position but for now, here
I am."  Connie, is your "precarious in-between position" an EASY
place to find yourself?  Is the idea of possibly actually coming to
the place of making the decision to leave the group EASY to consider??
  Is the prospect of the loss of relationship with those you love in
the group and in your family EASY to think about?  Is the fears you
have of, "What comes next?" an EASY thing to deal with?  Is the soul-
searching and the struggle between your love for and loyalty to those
in the group and your desire to understand GOD's will for YOUR life
an EASY thing to be dealing with?  Why do you believe it was any
different for US??
        Many of us will tell you that nothing.... NOTHING!!! was harder in
our entire life!  (Some have even said a messy divorce could not be
compared with the pain of the exiting process.)  And for those of us
with family and other loved ones still in the group, the process and
the pain can't just be allowed to fade away into the far distant past.
.. it is a continuing reality in our lives as we attempt to interact
with those loved ones... some who really believe we are very evil
people!
        So, continuing MY story... till I was 36 years old (23 professing
years), I made every honest attempt I could to promote changes within
the group... with the same results as my grandparents (who both
actually died still in the group) and my parents... does anyone else
see a pattern developing here??  Has my family stood alone in this
effort?  Has yours?  No, even on this list, there are many who for
years have stood and/or are still standing for that change... where
IS the evidence of any system-wide change?  How long must we wait?
Particularly when we have found there is something so much better to
move on to???
        Oh, Connie... the pain of those years of sticking up for what we
believed and praying for changes in the system!!!  The struggle and
the hurt of the years (before and after) of being misunderstood and
rejected for our stand.  Connie, VERY, VERY few people who I have
come to know as "ex's" turned and ran without a thought... for
bitterness; for unwillingness, or for any other such reason.  This is
just another lie about us (the "evil enemies of the truth") that has
been spread within the group... it is NOT reality!!!

You asked why we left, including the question:
        "Do you feel that it is just basically wicked, or something?  I am
not being sassy, I really want to know."

***Nor did I think you WERE being "sassy," Connie.  I doubt there's a
question you could ask on this subject that we haven't already been
asked and/or had ourselves!!  Keep asking! :-)
        I think there are many different reasons why different ones of us
finally made the decision that we could no longer stay in the group.
For me... did I think it was basically wicked?  No, absolutely NOT.
(I guess I WAS concerned that the judgment and resulting pain being
caused to sincere, honest and misunderstood people was evil... though
I wouldn't have worded it that way, at the time.)
        After much discussion and growing concerns... when I met with an
attitude from almost everyone I tried to discuss with that there
really was no problem. (It was all in my wrong spirit and my wrong
focus and my imagination) I finally left because I no longer felt I
could uphold the group as "the Truth" before my unprofessing husband
and my growing children when I saw so much about the system that was
not of Christ-like behavior.
        I knew almost NOTHING else about any other perspective of
"Christianity" other than the things I had been told in the group...
things said to feed the belief that we had something special and real,
 in comparison to the false and empty "showiness" of all those
"organized churches."
        When I made the decision to leave, I still believed it WAS God's
chosen way, but I believed it had become too corrupted for me to
raise my kids in it... I was willing to "stand alone" for Christ if
that was where I had to be... that was BEFORE I read THE SECRET SECT
and HAS THE TRUTH SET YOU FREE?, THE LIFE AND MINISTRY OF EDWARD
COONEY, and the newspaper articles, etc etc.  That was BEFORE I
started devouring Christian books and listening to Christian radio
and attending another church.
        TODAY (6 1/2 years later) I DO believe there is a lot wrong and
unbiblical with the doctrine and beliefs of the group.  The changes I
"promoted" while I was still a part of the group would no longer be
enough to cause me to go back, because I now believe even much of the
"biblical" teaching of the group is fundamentally flawed.

You talked about the MONEY issue and said:
        " But nowadays, when I sometimes consider checking out another
religion, I think about that collection plate, and about the preacher
standing up there talking about projects and missions and the need
for more moola, and it really turns me off."

***Connie, others have already responded to this question... my
feelings on this perhaps were best expressed by Dennis in his
following statement:
        "Following the new testament teachings, giving unselfishly is very
very important.  Doing whatsoever we do as if it were unto the Lord,
is included there.  Salvation is not a function of giving and wealth.
 The wealthy have NO right to impose burdens nor guilt upon the poor!
  10% from those with much in abundance is NOT the same as 10% of a
poor person's income, which is NOT their increase of substance.
        "To teach for today any "restoration" of,  or "return" to the tithe
of the old Testament that was to be given only to the tribe of Levi
(in accordance with the over-simplification I have stated above) is
flatly in error.  Many do NOT make such error, and are NOT to be
faulted because of those who do!"

***How true... is 10% of a DINK's salary (double income, no kids) the
same "sacrifice" as 10% of a single income 6-member family with 2
kids at the orthodontist and 2 kids in college and 3 teenage drivers??
  Of course not!  Each man should give what he has decided in his
heart to give.  Give when you have plenty so that when you are in
want, others can give to you.  (I'm not quoting these two scriptures
precisely, but the gist of it is there, anyway.)

        Unfortunately, I cannot agree with Julie's claim that no "true
Christian" would even try to "enforce" the tithe, because Brian and I
have personally experienced just that... not the literal keeping
track and DEMANDING everyone pay, but the verbal expression in
sermons of the "requirement" to give 10% and above... this from a man
who clearly understands (usually) that we are not under law, but
under grace.  Leaving the 2x2 group will NOT do away with all
disagreements, but it WILL free you to allow the Holy Spirit to lead
you in your convictions to choose to do the right thing according to
God's leading and not man's... and THAT is FREEDOM, indeed!!!  (Most
of us have found that in the 2x2's choosing to do things in our own
way and according to our own conviction, led not to freedom, but
rather to condemnation from men --unless we could keep it REAL secret,
 which I believe to be hypocritical and had no desire to do nor to
ask such of my kids.)
        As to a "preacher standing up there talking about projects and
missions and the need for more moola."  I must say that *I'd* rather
specific money needs were rarely or NEVER talked about in the church,
but how about trying a bit of a change in perspective here?  A song
often sung at church comes to mind, "PEOPLE *NEED* the Lord."
        Whether it's money being handed secretly to a worker with no
accountability or money being given in a church with a complete
record kept and much accountability; in this day and age, it DOES
take money to spread the gospel and it's a matter of life and
death!!
        Don't think of it as "projects and moola"... try thinking of it as
the fulfillment of the great commission (Matt 28:18-20)... as lives
touched for the Lord... people who don't know the Good News... people
we will one day spend eternity with because money was spent to make
it possible to get the Word out!!!  Is it so unreasonable for
Christians to be given the opportunity to give back some of what the
Lord (who owns EVERYTHING) has given them for such a cause??

so... HAS the truth set me free?  Oh, bless His Holy Name!!  I never
would have been able to guess!!  He really IS able to do immeasurably
more than all that we could ask or even imagine!!!!--Connie J

Connie H. wrote:

<< I am curious about why no one has stayed in this group and stuck to their
 guns, their beliefs.  Why don't people stay and try to promote changes of
 honesty and openness, instead of leaving it to the liars and pretenders?  If
 it is because you just get sick when you go to meeting and hear things that
 don't jibe, I can understand.  And I know some of you have been treated
 really rotten.  But I think there are other reasons.  Do you feel that it is
 just basically wicked, or something?  I am not being sassy, I really want to
 know.>>

I cannot have fellowship with liars.  I do try to promote changes with the
few who I now come in contact with which is basically just my family.  For
me, taking a stand for honesty and openness meant leaving the system.  I guess
I was a bit like the people in East Germany who rather than trying to change
the system tried to climb the wall, and get to freedom.  Free at last, Free
at last.  Thank God Almighty!!!!!  This same question has been asked of my
wife who was Catholic.  She basically says that once you have been cleaned
you can't stay in the garbage dump.

 <<I don't believe the ministry has to be 2X2 and all that, but I can see
some
 logic.  It makes it easier for them to "serve."  They don't have the day to
 day problems and worries that the rest of us have.  And I never could have
 gone to any other church the past 22 years, because I had NO money for it.
 I
 know, you don't usually HAVE to pay, but I would have felt awful not putting
 in my little envelope when the basket went by.  Once in awhile I could have,
 but not 10% every week.  No way.  So that's one thing I've been glad for.
  Wow.  That sounds pretty bad, doesn't it?  "I went to meetings because they
were
 basically free."  I really did do this with a whole heart at one time, and
 money had nothing to do with it.  I wanted nothing more than to raise my
 children to become workers.  But nowadays, when I sometimes consider
checking
 out another religion, I think about that collection plate, and about the
 preacher standing up there talking about projects and missions and the need
 for more moola, and it really turns me off.>>

I have attended the same church now for four years which is basically ever
since I became a Christian.  Four years ago this month.  PRAISE GOD!!!!  Our
pastor has NEVER stood up and talked about missions and trying to raise
money.  Actually, there was one time in the whole four years where a specific
need was raised before the congregation.  We support a church in Russia, and
they needed a car.  We raised the money for them.  Other than that, it has
never happened.  I don't deny there are people out there who operate that
way, but I think if they are pumping the money thing like the TBN television
station then they are giving Christianity a bad name.  I go to a Calvary
Chapel.  It is non-denomination, and there may be one in your area.  Each
congregation is independent since it is not a denomination, but I suppose
that there would be no money pressure there.


Roger Stip

Hi Connie.  Nice to hear from you in such an honest manner.  Isn't it great
to be able to confront the dangers of being found out and communicate with
people about what they believe and what God has done on a personal basis
instead of confining our fellowship to a select few that WE in our own
judgment single out as being God's only people.

At 03:39 AM 9/12/97 -0400, you wrote:
>I am curious about why no one has stayed in this group and stuck to their
>guns, their beliefs.  Why don't people stay and try to promote changes of
>honesty and openness, instead of leaving it to the liars and pretenders?  If
>it is because you just get sick when you go to meeting and hear things
>that don't jibe, I can understand.  And I know some of you have been
>treated really rotten.  But I think there are other reasons.  Do you feel that
>it is just basically wicked, or something?  I am not being sassy, I really
want
>to know.

We attend another church because:  We don't hear anything about following a
system but we hear about how wonderful God and Jesus Christ are?  And we can
actually WORSHIP God without being thought of as a bit strange.  And people
will pray for you directly and even mention you by name, to God.  And we can
attend seminars such as marriage seminars etc. put on by qualified married
preachers, trained in Psychology as well as Bible etc.  And the kids can
have better Bible training.  And the basic Bible teaching makes much more
sense because it's not tainted with system types of things and the
organization (organism) things are separate from the spiritual things.  And
there's more joy in discussing the things of God instead of the things of a
system.  And we are not expected to look down on other Christians for not
being part of our particular group.

>I don't believe the ministry has to be 2X2 and all that, but I can see some
>logic.  It makes it easier for them to "serve."  They don't have the day to
>day problems and worries that the rest of us have.

There is a certain type of logic in there but I think they just have
different problems, going by the numbers that have to leave the work.  God
planned man/woman relationships for a reason and a much better reason than
the workers have for saying the plan should be changed.  Since we started
attending other churches we have seen how married ministers and their wives
can understand and deal with members' family problems much better.

>And I never could have gone to any other church the past 22 years,
>because I had NO money for it.  I know, you don't usually HAVE to pay,
>but I would have felt awful not putting in my little envelope when the
>basket went by.

It's a pity the workers have painted such an evil picture of ALL other
churches re money.  Sure there are some exceptions but NOT all.  People in
the fellowship give money too and probably more than many people in there
think.  You never get anything for nothing and if you were somehow able to
add up all the extra money people in the fellowship spend on bigger living
rooms and extra bedrooms and extra cars for the workers and convention
grounds equipment it might very well be cheaper to buy a church building and
a house for the preacher to live in.  In the end I think the 2by2 system
actually causes more problems due to favoritism and hard feelings than other
systems do.  The people we fellowship with often testify that when they
give more, God just blesses them with more.  I'm not saying you should  give
10%.  I personally don't believe that law is still in effect but there are
better reasons for giving.  If the church is giving you what you need, you
won't have a problem giving enough to satisfy your conscience because you
will automatically want to give to help others enjoy the same benefits.  If
you can't afford to give money, don't give and don't worry.  Give to God in
some way other than money and He will bless you and you won't be looked down
on.  We give what we give because we want to, not because we are expected
to.  If the church isn't giving you what you need, you should go somewhere
else.  In our situation here, we tend to give more money than personal time
or other involvement and don't in the slightest way feel any negative
feelings toward some who do something different.  God forbid!  One Sunday I
gave my little envelope to the person sitting beside me instead, and wrote
on it "for you and your family" because I could see she was very poor.

May God bless you all.

   Tom

Connie H. - We did so much appreciate what you wrote to the list and I'm glad
for the posts you have received in return.  They are words of wisdom and
healing; they echo our own experience.  Nearly all of us have worked through
some of the same questions and issues you are facing.

By all means, continue to attend the meetings as long as you are comfortable
there - but LISTEN to what is really being said.  Rest assured, however, that
if and when you fail to find peace in this fellowship, there IS peace to be
found outside - in His word and His love.  That is open to ALL of us, and
it's a wonderful thing to understand.

We thought we could continue to be loved and accepted, even if they didn't
quite understand.  It has been the shock of our lives.  The person that I
trusted most with my personal feelings and friendship for 25 years, has been
the most virulent in the things she has said to and about me.  But what she
does not understand, is that although it hurts very much, I know that the
motive is FEAR.  Fear for her own "fragile faith" as someone put it.  Fear
for the faith of her children, if they should believe these things are true.
 Fear that she might be lumped together with us because of our past
friendship.  Fear for their position as "superior saints" and all the
privilege that goes with it.  I truly feel sorry for her in her bondage.  We
have never felt so free from the opinions of others, and so comfortable in
God's love and acceptance.  Freedom to love and be loved!!

It is probably hardest to find acceptance from our closest family - parents,
siblings, children - when we begin to draw away.  They take it as a drawing
away from them; they can't separate the two issues.   Subjects which we have
previously discussed with agreement are suddenly closed.    I don't know
where your children stand - not even sure how old they may be now.  I can
tell you that our relationship with our children and non-professing siblings,
has dramatically improved since we opened up the dialogue.  They had many of
the same feelings, which not only made them step back from this "way", but
built a wall between them and us. With judgment removed, we now can talk
openly about many things we haven't been able to.   We also can recognize and
say I'm sorry for hurts we didn't even realize we had inflicted. We were
guilty of an unspoken judgment of "they really KNOW what they should be
doing, but aren't willing".  It created a wall of silence on both sides.
 Freedom from man's judgments!!

Another beautiful result of our new understanding of God's love is the
ability to talk about scriptural and Christian subjects - we never did feel
comfortable, speaking of these things together outside of the meetings.
 Freedom!!  It's wonderful!!

Keep yourself open to God, Connie.  He is there.

With care and love - Karen & Van