July 28, 1999
When I was in meeting, I saw everything in life as a test. ' How can I
handle this as Jesus would have ' was what I lived by. I lived as though I
had a direct lifeline connection to God at all times. If I messed up....and
I mean over the least trivial thing....I felt I would be punished. And the
first thing bad that happened, I would see as a direct message from God
concerning my lack of faith and ability to walk as Jesus. Often in Sunday
morning meeting, you might here someone say they have been in darkness all
week or that they are ashamed that their faith has been weak. There is a
sincere fear and horror in knowing you didn't read and pray enough. Or
maybe you watched TV or had an inappropriate conversation with someone.
You'd be surprised what justifies not having done enough. In the truth,
all of life’s experiences are a test. Your very salvation depends upon how
you handle each situation and if it was handled in a Christ-like manner.
Once a lady I attended meeting with had a testimony something to this
affect....
" I was sick this week and couldn't sweep the floor like I normally would.
I would ask my husband to sweep in the morning before he left. But I
noticed that before to long, the floor was dirty and needed sweeping again."
She then went on to connect this situation to how sin affects us each day.
That we have to pray to be cleaned every morning, but that by the end of the
day we are dirty again. Then she stated that her desire would be to just
remain clean as Jesus throughout each day....and of course by this time she
was in tears.

This is a very good example of how the person in truth feels constantly
tested and on trial....it is such a burden....

Love, Jeri

I find all the things you talk about very familiar and very scary. I grew up in what I thought was the worst family in the world because of what these people put my parents through and as a product of that family have seen my brothers especially ruin their lives over.. I don't seem to hear a lot of people talking about the effect of the parents on the families. I find it very hard to forgive what I have gone through as a kid and I also know that it is very hard as an adult to know what to do. 9/97

I have just recently discovered this ex-2x2 forum and am so thrilled to have this wonderful opportunity to hear from others who experienced the same hurt and utter belittling as I did. I was raised in the truth in Oklahoma and grew up in a meeting that contained so much self-righteousness and some who used their testimony in meeting to belittle the young people there and make little digs about styles of clothing, makeup etc., etc., etc., and of course, you knew, without a doubt these barbs had been directed right at you. Over the years, many workers had derogatory things to say to me. Once when I was a teenager, a worker sitting at our dinner table with several other workers and my family made an extremely mean comment about the little cut curls on either side of my ears. This same worker was caught a few years later making out with a woman in a building at HAPPY CONVENTION preps. And so the criticism went. On and on and on! Years and years and years! People who felt better than me because I refused to slick my hair into a little knot would cast their eyes up and down me inobvious distaste, of course leaving one feeling bad about oneself and having the preverbal guilt. It's taken years to overcome this deep-seated guilt and finally, I am beginning to feel free. 9/97

Cheryle Winberg

I, too, have a heritage of "guilt" and shame that I have spent many years
working on. If I had to sum it up in one phrase it would be that I was
raised to have no self esteem (or very badly damaged self esteem). This
is the ONE most important thing I remember being taught as a child--I was
"ugly" and "different" from other normal human beings and I had no value
or worth on this earth--except what I could do for the "Way".  I remember
that every time I came up with a talent or ability--it was pushed down or
down played.  Never ONCE did my parents ever praise me or tell me I did
anything nice.  (They were afraid I would "get a big head" or start to
think good things about myself!)  Thank heavens for public schools and
for teachers!!! (Maybe that's why I became one--to help other kids in
similar circumstances!)

1.  Is it one of the doctrines of the Truth to make people feel bad (poorly)
    about themselves? (Or guilty and fearful?)
2.  How do modern 2x2 parents handle this issue with their children?  (Are
    the children told they are "wonderful" at home, and then "horrible
    sinners" in meeting?)
3.  Why is it a sin to look nice and make the most of what physical traits
     you were given?
4.  Doesn't making people (especially women) feel that they are totally
    worthless and "out of it"--set them up to be victims of anyone who
    would want to control them?  (Being aggressive or assertive was frowned
    on in my day in the 2x2s.)
5.  What are some good ways to build back a person's self esteem?

Please note, I have worked through a lot of this myself.  I've had to do a lot
of forgiving.  But the new people on the list reminded me of these things
that have continued to bother me.  I think some answers to any of the above
would be helpful to all.       Thanks again,  _____ 9/97  

Yes, it is the doctrine of the group to destroy self esteem. It is myopinion that this is largely because of misunderstanding much of thescripture, and OVER emphasizing things such as Paul's expression, "For Iknow that in me, (that is in my flesh) dwelleth no good thing:..." KJV(Romans 7:18. That thought, tied together with messages like Jack Carroll'sconstant barrage, convention after convention, meeting after meeting, of theneed to MORTIFY therefore your members....Col 3. presents a one-sided pictureof ourselves as God's creation.

As a result, children begin to think of themselves as evil, without talent, filled with wickedness. The constant presentation of a concept of wrongness, wrong doing, being wrong, sin, evil, wickedness first and foremost will always produce a self image of the very thing being sought to avoid. Goodness me! 9/97

She was raised in the Truth and to this day is traumatized by it. I want to help her and have had a hard time trying to figure out just what, if anything, I can do. She has so many issues to deal with and she just pushes them to the back of her mind.

Because of being brought up in it and all the restrictions she endured I think it is why she acts the way she does. I think and I know that the restrictions placed on people in the Way make you a little nuts at times. It's like what makes life worth living if you feel like you can't grow as a person. The freedom of just being alive is a sin to you. I, to this day, tie myself up in knots trying to help her. The damage is done and I don't think it will ever be repaired. 9/97

There is so much guilt still within me that it is hard to be free. _____ you know what I am talking about. Does one ever have the ability to belong somewhere else (church)??? I was brought up to believe if you did not follow "the Truth" then it would be far better to do nothing than get involved in a "false church." Has anyone else experienced this? I was raised in "Truth" but have not been for a long time. It is still a struggle. Amazing...isn't it.

>>Dear _____:Welcome to the list and YES we all struggled with going elsewhere for worship after leaving meeting. I think that we were made to feel like cripples. We were dependent on the group and constantly told that we were the only ones right, this was the only right way, all other churches were wrong, all other churches were false, all other preachers were hirelings and only were in it (pastoring a church) for the money, etc.

When you've gone to meeting all your life, you don't even realize all the transfer of information that has taken place and it just becomes a part of you and of who you become as an adult.

Back to the reference about being cripples. I think the intention is that we never CAN move on to anything else should we leave the group. I also honestly think they would rather see someone go down the road to alcoholism or drug dependency because then they may come to the end of themselves and end up back at meetings. The worst possible scenario is for us to find a church group we enjoy and become free from the reliance on the group and the guilt we lived with. If we are happy and content we probably aren't going to end up back with them. Also, we might tell others. How many times have we all been scared out of our wits with a story on Saturday night of convention or in a gospel meeting, about someone who quit coming to the meetings and later were in a horrific accident and died OUTSIDE!! The fear was very great and it played on your emotions.

How wonderful to come to a saving knowledge of Jesus and to know He loves you. He doesn't want to scare the wits out of you, or make you feel guilty or ashamed. When you realize that salvation is a gift and not something you can earn -- you certainly are overwhelmed with the love He has for you and that's such a better motivator than guilt!!

We've been attending a local church nearly 6 years now. It took lots of courage to go the first time and we went with a jaded view of churches. We gradually came to trust but we still measure what we hear with the Bible. If we don't understand something, we can ask without being intimidated. They truly WANT us to understand and we don't feel like we are wasting their valuable time.

I was sitting in church one Sunday just thinking how wonderful God is and I think we might have been singing and I felt so happy. The thought came to me that had you told me 6 months prior to that that the day would ever come when I'd be worshipping in a church -- I'd have never believed it. God works in mysterious ways, His wonders to perform. Praise His Holy Name, ___________

Wow did your post above strike such a chord with me!! This is So true of how the friends feel. I know for a fact that if you stay out of a "worldly" church, you can be more easily regarded as "wandering...so lost" by the friends. HOWEVER, if you join a church...or just become a regular attender, and make no bones about it...well, you can imagine what I am saying. My mother (who is still a 2x2) told me many times about "those who knew the truth and walked away from it are FAR worse off then those who never find out about 'truth' at all!!!" Of course this makes absolutely no sense at all, biblically speaking. I have always felt that, once you belong to a bible-believing, Christ-centered church, the friends feel there is no "hope" of you coming back to them...they feel you are brainwashed and "too far gone."

How right they are!!

I love being brainwashed with the TRUTH as it is in JESUS CHRIST!! And there is NO "hope" of me returning to such bondage as the 2x2's!!

Much Love To all

_______ 9/97

Dear ____,

So happy to have you here!! [On the List] I know what you mean about the guilt, but it gets better as time goes by. In the meantime just keep reminding yourself that you're free!!! It's quite a delicious feeling.....

Best wishes,

_______ 9/97

Thank you so much for responding to my feelings of guilt. I cannot tell you how it felt to receive validation of my feelings and sometimes hopelessness at feeling like I can never find a "home" because of all I was taught. It has surprised me (I don't know why it should have...but, it did) how emotional I have become since finding out about the 2X2 on the internet.

More than anything, I have been quite taken back by the feeling of "doing something wrong" by reading the e-mail and more than that...writing to you. It certainly has "hit" home how deep I have buried my feelings and longing to have fellowship with others...thinking that this was no longer possible because I could not and would not "go back." Can it be that you can havefellowship with others "outside?" Anyway, thank you all so much for caring and writing to me to let me know "it's okay." I look forward (with some trepidation) to more discussion. Thank you. 9/97

I believe it is most older worker's deliberate intent to stamp out self esteem, yes.....that is exactly what I am saying.... One time at convention a female worker (no, I cannot remember who, but it was at Olympia convention in 1979 or 80 when public attentionbegan to focus on the good qualities of self-esteem) emphasized the fact that the current trend toward developing individual self-esteem was NOT a good thing.

This was a "teaching" which was received by much nodding of heads to our right and left, (remember we always sat "down front" if possible, even with infants and toddlers....) Further her message was subsequently unrenounced by any of the binary ministry who heard her. Later, in our "field" her message was parroted by party liners in Sunday AM meetings....in the manner which they do....You know. "I was thinking about what xxxx said at convention re: self-esteem, and I was SOO glad to hear...." 9/97

I very much agree with your view that it is well
established guidelines (since there is no official
"doctrine" in the 2x2's) to break down any self
esteem, self worth, self love, or self appreciation
in children and adults alike.  Someone with these
qualities (yes, they are QUALITIES) would not meekly
follow them like the mindless sheep they so loved to
liken us to.....  9/97 

I think you are correct that many/most of us who grew up in the group sorely lacked ANY good feelings about ourselves. For myself I felt a misfit at school but when I went to convention I was a misfit too because my hair wasn't slicked back in a severe bun with my skirts coming 2" below my knees. (Remember when I was a teen mini-skirts were IN). I didn't fit in anywhere. I didn't wear miniskirts but I didn't have my skirts the required length!! My hair worn up at school didn't look like the other girls YET it didn't look like a sister worker's. I recall that verse so often quoted that WE WERE A PECULIAR PEOPLE! I think I threw those things off better than a lot of people. I just felt if it's something I HAVE to do to obtain salvation, then I'll do the best I can. BUT I didn't like it at all!! 9/97

Self-Esteem... I tend to agree with others on this. Compliments (IF they were/are EVER given to a child) must always be so guarded... and they are generally quickly followed with some caution about "not getting a big head." In addition, I think _____ really hit the nail on the head (or was it the BUN on the head??) at least for the ladies of the group. Oh, yes... we surely were PECULIAR people!! And how true... not only did we have to feel like "misfits" outside of the meetings and away from the friends, we also were often "judged" as"misfits" when we were in our own "safe, loving church family." (what a joke!)

Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus!! 9/97

I do truly believe from the bottom of my heart that one of the guiding forces of the 2x2er's is squelching self-esteem. When you have no self-esteem, it is much easier to force people ( I'm speaking for the women) into deadly formality. The workers could come and jump on you for wearing makeup or cutting your hair but they would never go to someone and tell them they were filled with self-righteousness etc. They will deal with a sin of the flesh but NOT a sin of the heart. 9/97

I was raised to believe I would never achieve anything except by HARD work, and that even then I could never excel at anything. I was taught that professing meant esteeming EVERYONE greater than myself, at EVERYTHING. Being frequently told someone else was tooo smart for their own good, and that I ought to take a lesson from that, only further destroyed self esteem.....

In school, I was NOT allowed to partake in any activity which my parents deemed was "unsuitable" and I was aware they conversed with workers after forcing me to go to bed, or leave the room so it could be discussed out of my hearing. Anyway, once I was elected to student government, and was forced to quit. I was forced to quit athletics. I was channeled away from music, though it was a natural gift. These were all things where I would have excelled.

It was once 2x2 doctrine that like a graft requires all the branches below the graft to be pruned, the Christian life required pruning of ALL signs of our humanity. That you may not have heard such does NOT negate that this IS what dominated my upbringing. I was NOT good at pruning my humanity, so others (including parents and workers) frequently saw fit to do it for me. I never once heard one word of praise directly from my mother or father, and only one time did I hear it indirectly. 9/97

I believe the lowering or actually the doing away of self-esteem is a point of doctrine for the friends and the workers. Just thinking now of John the Baptist's words - I must decrease, but he must increase. And then there is this which is wrongly used - I die daily. How often I heard that as reason to die to self. Of course, Paul was just indicating that he faced death daily. 9/97

I think that the "DOCTRINE" of the 2x2s regarding self esteem can be summed up quite simply...

THIS is the doctrine they teach - that a person's will must be broken and beaten down to become a humble professing person. I think this is a terrible misunderstanding on the part of the workers. They believe in subduing talents, natural gifts of ability, personalities and passions. They seem to have an understanding of having to "break" a person's will by beating them down into a box. They do this by enforcing all the rules and dictating lifestyle.

I believe the workers often refer to a horse when talking about a broken will - that the horse has to be "broken in" and forced to become obedient. What they don't seem to understand is that this is a very bad analogy. Horses retain all of their character, ability and talents. The only thing they lose is their rebelliousness against their owner. And this is not done by harshness. It is done by careful training with gentleness.

I do not believe that God wants us to have a broken will in the way the workers describe it. We can retain all of our passion and personality - we just channel it in the right direction and for the right purposes rather than subduing it.

I think of Paul the apostle. He was a man of passion with great zeal. When he went from persecuting the Christians to preaching the Word of God, he didn't lose character or passion. He just redirected it and used it for the purposes and glory of God. Another thing the workers don't seem to realise - it is the work of God through His Word to teach us to redirect our will. It cannot be forced upon us by the oppression of other men - or it does become a breaking of the will rather than a redirection by the Holy Spirit.

God wants us to have a strong will and a convicted will. He needs these things for the use of His Kingdom.

Praising Him who does not give us abilities to subdue or waste, but rather to give Him glory! 9/97

I think I ended up with a totally different message. I think I was pushed with a lot of self esteem. My mom today even buys music tapes for my two kids which have words like "you are special" in the song. I was always told I could do anything, and that I had worth etc.... The Merriam's-Webster dictionary defines self-esteem as a satisfaction or confidence in one's self.

I have actually come to believe through reading the Bible that self-esteem is what I don't need. It is only when I realize that I am weak that Jesus can work through me. The Bible says to crucify self rather than to esteem self. I do think we as humans have our ultimate worth in the fact that we are made in the image of God, and Jesus Christ loves us. I am not sure that feeling better about one's self is the answer. Rather than esteeming self, I think we should esteem Christ, and we should have our satisfaction or confidence placed in Christ rather than in self. 9/97

Webster's New World dictionary definition of Self-Esteem: "1. Belief in oneself; self respect, 2. undue pride in oneself; conceit."

Psalms 139:14 says: "I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made..."

Gen 1:31 says: "And God saw everything that he had made, and, behold, it was very good.,,,"

IMO it is good to have self respect and to believe in ourselves. After all, human beings are a marvelous creation. God valued us so much that He prepared a body for Jesus in which He could come to earth, live as a man and die for our sins. All this so that we can live eternally with Him.

On the other side of self-esteem, undue pride in oneself or conceit is not a desirable commodity. I can see where the Bible teaches against that.

_____, when you speak of crucifying self, do you think that we're to kill our creativity, talent, or abilities to function as people? Or are you thinking that we need to put to death those things about us that are unkind, unloving, self-seeking, arrogant, etc.?

I'm not sure I'm communicating well, but I wonder if there isn't some distortion in the thinking of many on this issue? When the Bible speaks negatively about mankind, I think it is referring to our sinful state, our standing as compared to a pure and holy God.

_____, you state: >I have actually come to believe through reading the Bible that self-esteem is what I don't need.<

Perhaps the reason you don't need it is because you have enough to have helped you to this point in your life. Thank your Mother for how she helped you in this regard. Without some self-confidence and self-respect would you have ever been bothered by the 2x2 system and tried to find honest answers to your questions?

You stated: >It is only when I realize that I am weak that Jesus can work through me.<

In all fairness, don't you think God can work through all sorts of people and things? Paul says: "Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong." 2Cor 12:10. God could work through Paul when he was weak, and he could work through him when he was strong, because Paul trusted God in all situations.

Yes, believers esteem Christ and His Word. Also, we are confident in Him, and we know that only because of His righteousness do we have eternal life. Yet we can thank Him for giving us brains with which to think, ears to hear, voices to praise, feelings of enjoyment, contentment and on and on.

As Christians we can esteem others: Philippians 2:3 "Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves,"

I'm sure there is much I can learn on this subject from all of you.When men destroy the self-respect and self-confidence of other human beings they are tampering with God's creation, and I can't believe God approves of that.

With love,

______ 9/97

EVERY aspect of life was focused around self denial and prevention of any development of a healthy self-esteem from the moment of birth, for those of zealous 2x2 parents. 9/97

In my experience, the workers/friends were not directly responsible for my total lack of self-esteem, but I feel the unwritten laws DEFINITELY were. 10/97

I never fit in either. Had long hair, strange looking out of fashion clothing, no makeup, mini skirts were in, etc. same time frame. My self esteem was so low I was basically raped (but didn't know enough to identify it as such) at 14 years old. This is not about blame - just reality. I've come to terms with it - but I suffered so much as a young professing person at school and trying to function in a world I was completely "sheltered" from. 10/97

I DO feel that workers and friends were directly responsible for my lack of self-esteem. Common courtesy, the culture of Heaven, plain old common sense should kick in and tell you, you don't treat others as dirt below your feet if they don't do exactly as you think they should. The so-called "friends" willingly and knowingly treated me like I was in quarantine. And I certainly blame the workers for DIRECTLY telling me I wasn't good enough. We're all doing the best we can and something I NEVER felt was acceptance. I do agree with you about dating and having to marry someone "wonderful" in the truth. I made the same mistake. And I certainly relate to the ridicule at a small school. Still carrying some of those hurts!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 10/97

One of the most difficult side effects, or symptoms, of my upbringing, or exposure to "truth" has been self-doubt. I was taught, quite systematically, though maybe not consciously, to doubt myself, my own reality and perceptions, reality itself. 10/97