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Would YOU ever go back IN?
Have you ever felt any tugs to go back to meeting?
If yes, why?
If no, why?
26/9/99
{I'm really not trying to start WW111, honest!} - SG
That's the best joke I've seen in a long time. (your subject) Still laughing!!!!
Actually we had someone tell us lately that we had good things that we could carry away from our 2x2 experience. I couldn't think of 1. Then he explained that our experience had given us a real fervor for TRUTH, we could identify wrong doctrine, could identify abuses, controlling ministers etc. He was right. Funny way to learn, all producing negative outcomes. ie Learning what is wrong and what not to include in your life instead of what is right and what you can enjoy in Christian life.
BUT, IN ONE WORD: "NEVER".
I value my new and close relationship with God far too much. It is a result of being able to LOVE and WORSHIP God in the freedom of the gifts he has bestowed me with.
Shalom ( and how good is that peace ) - Darryl 26/9/99
Go back? Are you kidding? Why not? The rules, worker-worship, the judging, the lies, etc. I do sometimes miss my old friends, though; however, I've made some great friends who are not 2X2's. Eric Brown 26/9/99
NOOOOOO! Claire and I left the 2x2 system, not because of the corruption that was rampant, nor the shunning nor the legalisms nor the injustices, but because we disagreed with the doctrine Nothing has changed in the system, but there have been many positive changes in Claire and I since we left. We will never go back to that blatant bondage. Love, Leigh and Claire Townsend 27/9/99
There is a meeting very near to us, distance-wise and there are times when we've seen the cars drive in for meeting. In all honesty, there has at times been tuggings at my heartstrings, a loneliness that I've felt; however, I realize that I have many, many memories of the people and the meetings. I know that if I walked over to where the meeting was being held -- I would probably NOT be welcomed. I am sure that in my present spiritual state -- I would be viewed as a heathen or an enemy. But the other side of the coin is how would "I" feel. I do not want to hear the testimonies of how everyone has slipped the past week or failed or the sad, draggy hymns of self-failure. I want to hear rejoicing, worship of our wondrous Savior and Lord and the confidence that we have in HIM, not the lack that there is in ourselves. I want to hear about the love that Jesus showed to me by dying in my place on the cross and I want to say "I love you Lord". Our pastor said an interesting thing yesterday at church and I immediately thought of this list and sharing it with you. There has been much debate on the different lists about grace vs. works, etc. Our pastor asked the question, "How GOOD do you have to be to get to heaven". The answer is -- "as good as God". Obviously none of us are and will never be in that position. So the solution is Jesus, who IS God. None of the works we do or the best we do, can be nailed up on the cross alongside Jesus because our righteousness is as filthy rags in comparison. Back to your question -- the tugs at my heart are still there sometimes because I wish so much I could share my testimony, my faith with these souls -- yet at this time I have to wait. I still care about these people, but they're too afraid of me and they harbor too many bad feelings because I've chosen to no longer worship in the way they do, in the group they worship in. I pray for them because I do care and I know how burdened and how sad so many "I" know are and I wish I could talk to them. As for going back -- I don't think so. If they ever got their doctrine re-aligned or to align with scripture, then I'd re-think my decision; but at this point I don't think their confidence is in God who can do all things. If they ever came clean on the historical background of the group -- it would give me hope that they are concerned with honesty which is more than I can say from the last time I talked with them a few years ago. FWIW, Joetta Heiser Indiana 27//99
The only reason I might consider it is FAMILY. Since leaving the 'meeting' ten years ago, and a divorce at the same time, I don't hear about the happenings from relatives. When I do, it is through my ex-wife's mother or someone from back home. And then it is after the fact. Of course there are some I don't miss at all, those are the judgemental ones! It's kinda like wanting to go back to the old familiar past where we only remember the 'good', selective memory. My life-partner, who knows very little of the religion I was raised in, sometimes wonders if I am interested in going back, since I spend so much time on the 'net reading the postings from this list. I tell her that there is no way I would go back, but it is good to read about others that made similar decisions to mine. Ron Baeseman 27/9/99
In a word - no! There is NOTHING there at all for me and I just would never contemplate it. In fact it would be my greatest wish to see the whole thing fall apart, and for all those still there who we care about to get out BEFORE that happens!! I can but dream...........! Love to all - Karen Fletcher 27/9/99
Would I go back?. If they were to openly acknowledge that they had taught wrongly about being exclusive and were looking for others to help/council them in adjusting to real Christian life then I would go back to help because I know that they are mostly a genuine people. But that wouldn't be going back would it?. It would be going forward. Danny Bell 28/9/99
I wouldn't have any trouble going to "visit" - I miss some of the old friends I used to know. I haven't had such shunning as others have. I did have intense experiences, but there has been a lot of forgiveness and true healing in these areas. I wouldn't "stay" because they don't believe in the use of all the gifts of the Holy Spirit and still put emphasis on things I feel are unimportant. The control the workers have on the people is still troubling to me and I would never subject myself to that again. There is only One who I am responsible to in my life. HE DIED FOR ME. How could I ever give my will over to any person here on earth? Patty from Vermont 28/9/99
My answer to this is yes and no. First the no:
I have had an encounter with Jesus, and now I can never fit in there again. I need to freely express myself in my worship. I need to do it in the style we'll do it in heaven as we stand around the throne. This is only the rehearsal, and it is absolutely wonderful to lift up holy hands and praise him. (By the way "Holy" is not walking around with a halo, it means separated unto God.) This brown slave was bought with a price by a new Master who really loved Her, and gave her her freedom. It is quite unlikely for this brown slave, having all her marbles in tact, to return to the one who beat her into submission, didn’t feed her with healthy food, left her to die out in the cold, and didn’t even check on her to see how she was doing!
Now the Yes: I often dream of a day that I could walk up to that platform, grab the mike and tell them what Jesus my Saviour did for me. I know that I would have to phone 911 in advance to pick up the people in shock, or dead. I would sing a few praises, worship the Almighty who is so worthy of praise, and perhaps do a little praise dance with Taylor Wood. (Hope he is still alive.) All this on the platform if you please. I would say, "I enjoyed the joyful noise unto the lord before the meeting." I would tell the parents with the children who are wiggling to come up to the front with them, so that we could pray for them and bless them.
Ok! I know I'm dreaming, but if that day ever comes true, you're ALL invited. (smile) Come as you are, sit where you like, and file into the dining tent and sit at any table. You won't have to say, "I'm so glad to be here, because I'm not 'there'." Your face will show how glad you are, it will shine with the love of Jesus. You won't have to thank the Lord for "the workers who came in 1937," instead you’ll praise the Son who came from heaven!
William Irvine's doctrine is out, his brand name clothes are out. He took his long faces with him, and there is much rejoicing.
Have a wonderful day. Sheila Martin 28/9/99
Some of the contributing factors for us being able to leave:
1) Physical distance from family, we lived in a city quite a distance away from either of our families. When I go back and visit my family I sometimes wonder if I would ever have been able to leave the group had I been living right there, just due to the social pressure and desire to fit in with those I care about.
2) Finding ourselves exposed to some quite horrible behaviors/conduct of members of the group. Even though over time we had been aware of some serious issues within the work and friends, workers having sex with minors and so on, some of these items had been reasonably well dealt with in the region we lived, and they did not affect us at a very personal level. Then some incidents did affect us very personally. We became exposed to the impacts of physical and emotional abuse made worse by a structure of support for the abuser within the workers and friends of the country where it occurred. We were affected by other dishonest dealings within members of the group that resulted in much self questioning and slowly some understanding that one persons "truth" might not be another's. We began to find that within this "perfect" way, there were people choosing to believe their own version of truth if it benefited them, even if it caused hurt to others. At the same time we also knew many good and kind people in the group. Together these experiences slowly helped us to understand that this group of people was not particularly unique or special, but rather had a mixture of good and bad motives like any other group of people. This is a hard thing for some people to get used to... it is nice to think that you are part of a special group of people that alone has God's favor. For myself though, quite frankly, it was a big relief to not have to be "special" anymore, that is, no less special and no more special than any other human.
3) Through jobs, university etc, becoming exposed to all sorts of people and beginning to realize that there were many well meaning and kind people outside the group. Getting exposure to people who were less judging over trivial matters, and who actually seemed to appreciate you for you, not because you were just part of their exclusive group. For myself, through business leadership training, I was exposed to some people who both taught and lived with a lot of accountability for the impact of their communication on others. I found this such a positive contrast compared to the religious group where straight talk, questioning and clarification is discouraged, and people can feel free to preach at each other but no one is allowed to defend themselves or question (as that is showing an unwilling spirit).
4) While in the way seeing the impact of the group on others...especially some very earnest, honest, and wonderful young men and women who become workers. And seeing that the most honest ones who most strive the most to give their all often became wrecks of their former selves. This caused a recognition that this group in particular (but not only this group) can cause a downward spiral that robs a person of their individual human spirit... and there are few things sadder than that.
5) While already pondering the above things, not particularly openly, starting to question other aspects of the group, such as clothing and hair issues. This started by realizing that during the time period when Christ would have lived, styles were very different than they are today, and in fact both men and women wore fairly similar basic garments, with men having some brighter additions to them and so on. So then why such a big deal over women not wearing pants in this group for example? Surely for a group in existence for nearly 2000 years, they would have had to adapt to a variety of styles over time. So why did it seem that women in the group should wear their hair in the styles of the period around the turn of the century? (1910 or so)? What was magic about that particular time period? Then I heard some rumors that the group may have started about that time and the reasons for these hair and clothing restrictions started to become quite understandable in that light.
6) Over a matter of years we became less and less comfortable in the group. For myself, when I read my bible, I found that some of the things that were most meaningful to me were not things that I could openly express in Sunday morning meeting...I found that very difficult. The focus on the rules (like no movies, no TV, no wine (in north America ...ok in many other areas) recorded music discouraged (hard for me, I love music), and so on) became harder to ignore. Personally we felt that some of these things could be enriching and that the banning of them was illogical. But for us to have freedom in those things would require us living a double life if we were to stay in the group, something we knew was unsustainable. We started to find that our most precious times were times when we were not restricted by the group and its limited thinking. When we were on vacation discovering differences in culture, or when we were in the mountains enjoying the wonder of our world ....those times started to be more meaningful than time spent listening in meetings.
7) We were not (at least I was not) particularly able to articulate what we were feeling at the time or why were feeling it. Looking back I can see the beliefs, teaching, and limited and exclusive view of the group was stunting our growth as humans and limiting the wonder and richness of life that we could experience. Some of the basic assumptions that you base your life around are handed to you as a child and you accept them before you develop the ability to reason. I started to question some of these inherited assumptions. An example: If God is all powerful and all knowing and kind, then he must have known the personality of his creation mankind, and that they would do the things they would do. Why knowing this would he then punish them by the horror of an eternity of terrible suffering for just following the instincts God himself created in us in the first place? The existence of this kind of hell starts to not make a lot of sense, and you start to wonder if some of this isn't just made up to provide a way for people to control other people.
8) Finally realizing that the only thing that was keeping us in the group was connection and loyalty to family, we finally got the courage to break it to them and stopped going to meetings. It was a wonderful relief in some ways, but I felt lingering doubts at times. That is when we came across the book "The Secret Sect" and the newspaper articles from "The Impartial Reporter" that were written about the beginnings of the 2x2 way at the time it was just getting started. The factual and well researched information presented in these sources cleared away any lingering doubts, as it was so evident that this 2x2 group was just man's creation.
The Secret Sect Book is one I particularly recommend. Doug Parker who wrote it, was just starting to go out into the work when an incident with an the overseer worker makes him wonder about the historical basis of this group...and he travels to Britain to do some research. Needless to say, he does not go into the work. He marries a lady who helps him write this book, and because she is knowledgeable about research and proper documentation, the result is very well done, factual, and well annotated. This is a must read, especially for anyone thinking of going into the work .
The Impartial Reporter newspaper articles are also very good. The reader can read an actual historical account of one of the first conventions. When reading it, you recognize all the common elements to the group you are in, and it becomes obvious that what you are reading about, and what you know of the group today are the same, and the group is just the creation of men.
9) If you do further reading and research a little of the history of religion, you also find that some of the things we grew up being taught as infallible truths have changed significantly over time, even to the concept of God itself. You find that people have shaped religions and beliefs to suit their needs and purposes over the centuries. So if in the end, people shape and choose their own beliefs, why not choose ones that are empowering, moral, kind, inclusive of all, and make the whole human race your community rather than an exclusive limiting group.
Well, as far as the leaving process ... I will let that do. And to tell you the truth, the above seems like only a skeleton view of a process I was going through over probably much of the last 15 years.
As far as any risk of going back ....
If I were to try to go back into the group it would feel like climbing into a cage...or a crate that had become too small for me.
I have absolutely no tugs within me to go back into the group. I do feel some family tugs when I am with my family, because I know they can not understand my decision and that puts some distance between us that is sad. That is a tug of a lost sense of community though, not anything to do with religion.
It is possible that had I left during my period of rebellion when I was 18 or so that I would have been susceptible to being drawn back in, or at least feeling somewhat guilty all my life for not being in it, and deep down wondering if it was in fact the "right" way. Because my leaving some 17 years later was a result of questioning, responsible reason, factual information, and a resulting changing of my beliefs (rather than a rebelling against unchanged inherited beliefs) I am in no danger of going back.
A person will be at risk of being pulled back if his underlying beliefs in this way remain unchanged. A person who rebels against the group, or leaves because of "worldly temptation", (whether that be a relationship with a unprofessing person, or simply wanting the freedom to do things restricted by the group) are not dealing with the situation in terms of their basic underlying beliefs and values but more at the more surface level of their behaviors and capabilities. The behaviors and capabilities are conducted within the underlying structure of the persons belief system, with the beliefs themselves remaining unquestioned. By leaving the group, having only dealt with it at this level, the person is conducting behaviors that are against his still unchanged beliefs, creating a lack of congruence in his life. Or the person feels that he/she could not withstand temptation and had to leave because of it, doubting his capability to live a good life (live up to his beliefs/values), and feeling guilty for that.
It is useful to think of these concepts in terms of a hierarchy.... with beliefs at the top, capabilities under that, and behaviors under that. The lower levels (or more shallow if you want to think about it that way) can affect the higher levels over time, but with difficulty. On the other hand, a change in a higher level can not help but affect the lower levels. If some one teaches you a new capability, for ever after you have an expanded range of behaviors. Likewise, a change in belief has far reaching effects, making possible whole new ranges of capabilities and behaviors that may have seemed impossible or incomprehensible before. (If I believe I am bad at math, I will find it difficult to learn math, and I will avoid situations that require me to conduct math.)
If a person continues to only deal with the issues of belonging to the 2x2 group at the more surface levels of capability and behavior without questioning and changing his/her underlying belief in this group (that it is"right", that it is God's true way, that hell is the destiny of those not following it, etc.) he/she may be in constant struggle/torment unless he/she returns to living in accordance with those deep rooted beliefs. The person may be able to push those things from their mind for long periods of time, but they will be there, and will jeopardize his/her ability to enjoy life outside the group and be fully free and whole. Not a good life for him, nor for someone trying to share his life if it remained this way. If a person in this state finally "gives in" and returns to the group, he may experience quite a sense of relief that results from again living in congruence with your deep rooted beliefs and values.
By contrast, by the time I left the group I was also feeling that I was living incongruently. But for me, it was the opposite way. At the surface levels I was still in general exhibiting behaviors that were in line with the group. I was starting to doubt my capability to continue to do so. I was still outwardly more or less showing behaviors that were acceptable to the group, but bottom line, I no longer believed in it.
I deep down did not believe that the only people on earth worthy of gods love and eternal reward were members of the 2x2 group.
I did not believe that 99.9% of the human race were heading for a hell that was cruel beyond imagining.
I did not believe that God cared much about what I wore, or the length of my hair.
I did not believe the world was black and white, that people, groups, and activities were either all bad or all good.
I did not believe that dogma and doctrine were more important than kindness and common sense.
I just did not believe it any more.
I did and do believe in kindness and in not knowingly causing harm to others.
I did/do believe in responsible communication, being accountable for the impacts of what you say on others lives and well being (something I found very lacking inside the 2x2).
I did/do believe in personal choice, in personal expression of our unique and wonderful individual characters and talents that can enrich the world, rather than shoehorning people into a common mold.
I did/do believe that business can be conducted with honor and ethics and be a force for good and not just greed.
I did/do believe that life is a gift to be enjoyed, not something to be lived fearfully, head down hoping and struggling to make it through without succumbing to that evil "human nature".
Speaking of human nature, I did/do believe that the best that is in people is as good as the worst/evil in people is bad. I do not have to look beyond the marvel of people to explain either.
I did/do believe in evolution because I can see and hold a dinosaur bone in my hands and I don't need to make a story up about how the devil or God planted them to test my faith.
I did/do believe that there is value in considering the concept of God from other perspectives and I do not believe in the "old wise man in the sky" version of God that I was implicitly taught of in my youth (as opposed to explicitly taught of in other religions).
And so, for me leaving was a huge relief... because I could again live in congruence with my beliefs. Hence, I am not at risk of going back.
Jim Arnold
September 26/1999
Wild horses couldn't drag me back. I do miss a few things about professing. One of them is convention stew! And as I was telling a lady over coffee today I did save a lot of money not having to have my hair cut. I'd like to go to convention or to a gospel meeting just to listen in again with 'new ears.' But somehow I don't think I'd be welcome and if I did go I'm not sure I could sit and be quiet. Actually I did go back to one final gospel meeting about six months after I left. I even took notes. At that meeting I heard worker Jim A preach "At the end of Jesus' life he became even more important to the people who really mattered." I was APPALLED! A couple of the friends did acknowledge me there. Normal H came and shook my hand and with a look of great expectation asked "Does this mean you will be coming back to meeting, Sandi?" I had attended that meeting because I knew it would be my last opportunity to hear with my 'new ears.' You see I already had my exit letter printed and ready to mail. I took that "mailing step" a couple of weeks later. I sent my exit letter to over 100 families. I don't think I left any doubt that I wouldn't be coming back. I'm sure 99% of them had never received an exit letter before. I felt compelled to tell them what I had learned about their group's history, about Who Jesus is and about Salvation by Grace. Up until I sent out my exit letter a number of the friends were still on speaking terms with me. In fact I still visited some of them just like in 'the good old days.' I'm sure they just felt very sorry for me and hoped and prayed I'd see the "errors of my ways." After my exit letter I'm sure I was labeled as evil or maybe crazy. I know we don't all have the same views of what to do or not to do after we leave. For myself, I was DRIVEN to tell the friends what I had learned about their secret sect. In my heart I knew I MUST SPEAK UP! It was information that *I* wished I'd had all those professing years. To me it would have been cruel to HAVE the information and NOT share it. Sure, I was sorry to upset a lot of their dream-world apple carts but I felt it was their RIGHT to know. I still feel the same way. I just knew that if someone who was professing right along side of me got 'the information' and got OUT and that person didn't share it with *me* and as a result I remained in that continued bondage I'd have been furious!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I can tell you that I am more THANKFUL to be out of the Two-by-Twos than I am for being thankful for just about ANY OTHER THING in my entire life. Having said that I can also tell you that making the decision to leave was *T H E* HARDEST decision I have EVER made in my life--bar NONE! THE HARDEST DECISION WAS TO LEAVE THE BEST DECISION WAS TO HAVE LEFT Sandi 28/9/99 INFORMATION WORKS INFORMATION FREES!
My answer to "would you go back" is "Go back to what? To a "way," started by a man, that has caused so many to be in bondage to the abuse, man-made rules, and blindness that has kept them from knowing the really Good News. Joan Daniel 29/9/99
Dear friends, Well, this little question has drawn me out of lurksville. It has been maaaany months since I posted as a lot has been going on here. Firstly, this is my first post since leaving, which we did a few months ago. I use to wonder if we would regret making the decision to leave? Would we feel a tug at our heart when we drove past a meeting or at 10:30 a.m. each Sunday? Well the answer is NO. I can honestly say I have never had a moments regret. Whenever we think of a meeting in progress it is only with sorrow for those still in. We have known so much Joy and enriching that comes with good teaching, that we just wish the friends could share in it. Practically every Sunday, when I listen to our pastor, I just wish that one of the workers would come and listen to what good teaching is like. I think back to missions where the singing and the looks on peoples faces reflected a genuine lack of enthusiasm and can't help but compare it to the Joy and the genuine interest and delight in Gods word that those in our new church have. Yet the joy doesn't come from the church, it comes from Christ and is reflected in the church. Les commented that we don't feel a loss because we haven't lost anything. We still have Christ and we have gained so much. There is not a day goes by where I don't thank God for revealing the Gospel of Grace to us. We didn't join another church to find Christ or a better way. We have Christ, we simply go there for fellowship and good teaching. We are not bound to this church, but at present it is a safe place. They acknowledge they are not the 'way' or the 'vine', only a branch on the vine. As the teaching in the fellowship is not good or clear at present, why would we go back? Only if they acknowledged that they were not the 'way', but only one of the branches and preached the Gospel of Grace as was delivered unto Paul, would one consider going back, but then only to share fellowship, not to 'join'. NOPE! This girl is standing fast in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free! Robyn 30/9/99