A List for current and former members of the Church With No Name has been operating since mid 1996. Those subscribed to the List receive all E-mail messages posted to the List. An anonymous worker (who up until his first post was just "lurking/listening") has posted his/her comments through a subscriber to the List. Here are this worker's first two anonymous messages to all List subcribers:

Tue, 29 Oct 1996

Listee's:

The following is a forward from an Anonymous Worker-Lurker:

"Regarding attitudes regarding a "founder" of the fellowship, I grew up believing that the fellowship was a continuation of the New Testament church, though I cannot recall receiving specific teaching to either support or disprove this idea. I first heard of Wm. Irvine when as a young worker I read articles by Piepkorn and others, which I found on my own in public libraries (before The Secret Sect and subsequent books were written). Since then I have read all the published material I have found regarding the fellowship. I still believe the fellowship is a continuation of the New Testament church. I do not mean to say that I believe it has been passed from person to person in an unbroken chain through the centuries. I make no historical claims; that has no meaning to me one way or the other. Fellowship with God begins when a relationship is established between an individual and God Himself through faith in the Lord Jesus. Because of experiencing that relationship, I am also enjoying fellowship with this body of Christians in which I see a continuation of the practices of the church of the New Testament. It is not possible 100 years later for any of us to know all the particulars regarding W. Irvine and his early companions, or exactly how they received the faith that they so zealously set out to share with others. One thing is certain: none of them considered themselves to be a founder. A quote from E. Cooney in the first decade of this century -- found on the R.I.S. website -- confirms this. (I'm sorry I don't have it immediately available to quote here, but most of you have seen it.) I have talked with elderly saints and workers -- now dead -- in whose homes W.Irvine himself visited in the first two decades of this century. He was never presented as a founder, simply as a worker visiting from the British Isles, and many were surprised to know, many decades later, than people were claiming him as the "founder" of our faith.

I do not believe there was a "cover up" after his departure from the fellowship simply because there was nothing to cover up; Irvine and others received revelation from God and then were subsequently used as instruments to preach the message of the Lord Jesus. As they reached various parts of the world, they encounted others who received the same revelation -- some prior to their arrival, some upon hearing their message -- and fellowship was created between them. In every place I have been, whether in USA or in countries of far different cultures, we have met people who tell of receiving understanding from God regarding the pattern of ministry and worship of the N.T. church before "workers" ever arrived, and as a result we share in a common fellowship. My own ancestors in the human family were among those who had understanding from God regarding the need to return to the faith of the New Testament, though from different religious organizations in different parts of the world. In my opinion, Wm. Irvine is not a "founder" any more than these widely scattered individuals are; we are all recipients of the divine eternal life that was in Christ and which has been extended to us by His grace.

When God spoke directly and personally to me nearly thirty years ago, my surrender was to Him, and Him alone: "Jesus, my Savior King, I WILL BE THINE." I did not surrender to any person, group of people, or system. The reality of daily fellowship with God has been the center of my life since that time. If I did not have this foundation of faith and a living walk with God, my reaction upon reading much of the material written by those who would like to discredit the fellowship might be, "What a terrible group!!! Who would want to have anything to do with a fellowship like that?" However, my experience of the reality of the fellowship is far different from what some would like to portray. The sweetness of coming into His presence and feeling His touch, receiving His strength and direction and care and thus being united with others who are experiencing the same answers every question or doubt that arises. 1 John 5:20 is a wonderful security, and it is reality. For those who have not experienced it, I pray one day they may, praying also that God would use me as His instrument in any way possible so that it may be so." [end]

Listees:

Follows a forward from an anonymous Worker-Lurker:

"The following thoughts are not intended to be an exact representation of anyone's beliefs but mine. I am not trying to set myself up as a spokesman for the fellowship in any way. Every individual is responsible before God or their beliefs, teachings, and practices. However, I have been exposed to the fellowship all my life and in the ministry for nearly half my life, being fairly well acquainted with the fellowship in western, central, and eastern USA as well as several other countries, and personally acquainted with over a third of the active workers in the whole world, I feel I understand what the majority of workers believe and teach, again acknowledging that there are individual variations of convictions and understanding.

While I prefer not to use the word "trinity", since it is not found in the Bible, and it means varying things to different people, my belief concerning the divinity and humanity of our Lord Jesus is quite "orthodox" according to other Christian groups. I am 100% in agreement with Walter Martin's simple statement regarding God in three persons, which unfortunately I do not have at hand at the moment to quote exactly; most are likely familiar with it. Discussion beyond that point usually tends to speculation, so I choose not to elaborate. I believe and teach that our Lord Jesus was fully divine and fully human, true God and true man. As a visitor in conventions in both western and eastern USA, I have preached this, pointing out the many times that the LORD, YHWH, of the O.T. clearly refers to the Lord Jesus or the Holy Spirit as well as referring to the Father. I have always seen this teaching in the Scriptures and therefore believed it, although there was a time when I was not able to articulate it with great clarity (and no doubt still can't; limited human words cannot portray the infinity of our Lord). In my naivete of years ago, I did not realize that some so-called Christian groups taught otherwise. Only after being in the work a few years and having in-depth contact with other groups that hold a different belief did I see the need of exercising myself to have more detailed answers along this line; I innocently thought it was universally understood. Just in recent years have I heard some ex-members of the fellowship make the claim that the fellowship as a whole teaches otherwise. Once that claim was brought to my attention, I began visiting with and writing to older workers from around the world to verify their beliefs. I likewise listened closely in every kind of meeting for any comments that could shed light on others' beliefs along this line. What I heard convinced me that the majority have the same basic understanding I have. After teaching this publicly in conventions, I asked ther workers for their reactions. They concurred that I expressed exactly what they believed; if anyone was of another opinion, they did not tell me. I readily acknowledge that a number of workers and saints have problems articulating their beliefs along this line. Perhaps because many people (in the fellowship and otherwise) in common usage use "God" to refer to the Father -- as does the Bible -- their automatic reaction to the question, "Is Jesus God?" is "No," when in reality they are meaning to state that Jesus is NOT the Father, denying the false doctrine of "oneness" that some groups believe. I believe this is a problem of "strifes of words" and misunderstandings -- perhaps a lack of patience on one side or the other (or both) to understand just what is being expressed -- not of a basic difference in understanding. Along with other workers, I pray that others would become more able in expressing this belief, and labor to that end. It is true that a few workers evidently have a different understanding. I regret this, yet at the same time I recognize that all are at different stages in their spiritual growth; some have progressed farther along one line, and some along others. God can and does give more light at the appropriate time, and I know some who once did not have this understanding are now seeing it very clearly. I have only heard one definitely anti-trinitarian message from a worker in my lifetime. I visited with him about his beliefs, and though we did not see eye to eye on the subject, again I state my confidence that the Holy Spirit is well able to guide into all truth in His due time.

(It is of interest that D. Chapman's website recognizes that Arthur Piepkorn's scholarly study, Profiles in Belief, offers the most accurate and unbiased picture of the fellowship. That study readily recognizes that the fellowship believes in the "orthodox" trinity. The aforementioned website also states the opinion that the fellowship is NOT a cult on either theological or sociological grounds. )

I believe and teach salvation by grace through faith alone. I could add that I teach this vigorously, since without this basic truth, other teaching would be meaningless. Frequent messages on this subject are always well-received; I have never heard any rebuttals suggesting that any workers believe differently. I recognize along with others that this important theme must be emphasized more and more, but to state that it has not been believed and taught in the past is a fallacy. Both Piepkorn (mentioned above) and the Encyclopedia of American Religions state simply, "Grace is stressed." In the area where I presently work, our list of weekly studies for this year has a series on basic truths regarding salvation, giving a number of references as a beginning for each study. The first study is "Saved by grace, not by works" (Acts 15:11, Rom. 5:6-21, Rom. 11:5-6, 2 Cor. 8:9, Eph. 2:4-10, 2 Tim. 1:9, Titus 3:4-7). The series continues with "Saved/justified by faith" (Lk. 7:50, Lk. 8:48-50, Lk. 17:19, Lk. 18:42, Acts 15:9, Acts 16:30-31, Rom.3:22-28, Rom. 4, Rom. 5:1-2, Rom. 10:9-10, Eph. 2:8); "How faith that brings salvation is produced" (Jn. 4:42, Acts 11:13-14, Rom. 1:15-17, Rom. 10:8-15,1 Cor. 1:17-24, 1 Cor. 15:2, Eph. 1:13, Jas. 1:21); "Christ is us, proof of salvation" (Jn. 14:22-23, Jn. 17:23-26, Rom. 5:9-10, 1 Cor. 3:16, Eph.3:16-19, Col. 1:26-27, 1 Jn. 2:20, 27, 1 Jn. 4:4, Rev. 3:20); "Perseverance and growth in connection with salvation" (Mt. 10:16-22, Mt. 24:9-14, Lk.>8:15, Lk. 21:19, Acts 13:43, Rom. 2:7, 1 Tim. 4:16, 2 Tim. 2:12, Heb. 2:1-3,>1 P. 2:1-3, 2 P. 1:5-11, 1 P. 3:18.); "Good works, a fruit of salvation" (Mt.>5:14-16, Lk. 19:8-10, Rom. 2:6-7, Eph. 2:10, Phil. 2:12, 1 Tim. 5:10, Titus>2:11-15, Jas. 2:14-26). It is true that Christian testimonies will often refer to the need for diligence in service. This should not be strange to anyone, since troughout the New Testament, the obvious result of salvation was a whole-hearted dedication to henceforth live for the One who died for us. Christian diligence and works of service are the product of salvation, not vice versa. Likewise Christian testimonies often refer to our unworthiness, since it is readily recognized that we can never deserve, earn, or win salvation through any effort, merit, or goodness of our own. We will always be unworthy of divine love and of eternal life. I know no one in the fellowship who would teach otherwise. Our only worthiness is by being born again through faith in the Lord Jesus and thus becoming partakers of Him. Any works that we do are understood to be a expression of our gratitude and devotion to Him, in no way to be equated with His provision for us, small and inconsequential in comparison with what He gives and does. (No, I am not talking in "code", as some would like to accuse workers of doing.)

I do not believe in the Living Witness doctrine. In recent workers meetings and personal conversations, it was emphasized again by an older overseer from eastern USA that insisting that salvation comes only through a living witness limits the power of God, recognizing all the while that the testimony of a living witness was the principal instrument used to bring souls to salvation in the New Testament, and is yet today. He quoted George Walker as having taught this. After the meeting an overseer from western USA told me how happy he was to hear this presented so clearly, echoing what they had been taught in the West by Jack Carroll. As I recently read some of my personal study notes from years past, I found this comment I had written: "We must be ware of presenting the redemptive work of Christ as a side-effect of following a particular religion. Instead, the fellowship with its standard of living is a result of having come in touch with Christ and accepted his provision... We must present His free grace alone in the person of Christ Jesus, not ourselves and our way of life. He is the means of expiating sin... The outward symbolisms of religion, though God-given, do not make for righteousness. They only reflect the work of Christ through faith. All are brought to one level of righteousness before God, one common standing: justified by faith... Every step of the way the work is His, not ours."

Yes, there have been many mistakes made through the years by many individuals. And if anyone wants to read about a lot of mistakes, they don't have to look any farther than the pages of the Bible. More mistakes will doubtlessly be made in the future. God speaks to and uses fallible individuals because there isn't another kind -- except for the Lord Jesus who, though living in a body of flesh like ours in every respect, did not sin. I have been disappointed many times in many people. I have been bitterly disillusioned even more often by myself. However, my faith is founded on a relationship with God, not on any relationship with others, and I have never been disappointed in Him, nor have His promises failed. I am constantly aware that my own righteousness is nothing more than filthy rags in His sight, so it is no surprise when I make huge blunders; why should the blunders of others surprise me? When there is confession and repentance, the scripture guarantees forgiveness and restoration. Confession does not mean that we necessarily air all our dirty laundry in public, and the desire of some to expose "scandals" of one kind or another is not the Christian spirit that I find in the scriptures.

By the way, I never had to "sneak" into a Christian bookstore to buy the New International Version or any other version of the Bible. I have always frequented Christian bookstores wherever I've been, buying Bibles of many versions as well as any other number of products on sale there. I have bought NIVs in bulk, both as books and on cassettes, for distribution to the saints. R.L. Allan's catalog of Bibles and hymn books that is distributed to workers worldwide contains many versions of the Bible, including NIV, noting that the variety of selection is because of the numbers of requests by workers for other versions.

In reply to the following comments made by Sandi and Julie:

Sure Gene, let us know if the workers are wanting folks to avoid the Internet. If so, what do they say about it? Thanks.

YES, YES.....please tell us if they say anything about this!! I am hearing things from my mother about this "internet problem"....My mother's friend used to have America Online, but has recently cancelled it...said her computer was not powerful enough to handle...hmmmm. One would wonder if there was not another reason??

You don't have to go to convention to find about the dangers of the Internet; just pick up a copy of Reader's Digest or Newsweek! Thousands of saints and workers all over the world are using the Internet for its convenience of communication. That doesn't mean that we won't be warning people of its dangers, just as other conscientious people in every walk of life are doing. Some recent comments I've heard about what workers do and don't mention make me see that it's a no-win situation; if we do speak a word of warning about anything, we're "meddling in the saints' affairs." If we keep silent, we're "ignoring important current issues that need to be addressed."

In response to the following comment from Dale:

Almost every year someone calls us who has heard something at the convention that does not sound right. Please pray that this year will be no acception.

For many years I have heard things at conventions and other meetings with which I am not in 100% agreement. I don't know anyone who claims infallibility. We often discuss things after meetings and offer critiques of messages others have given, from young to old. This is in accordance with scripture -- 1 Thess. 5:21. But to pray that incorrect things be preached??? Really now, I would think you would rejoice in the opposite, that people would be growing in truth, grace, and understanding. I acknowledge that my own understanding of some scriptures or ideas in the past has been incomplete or incorrect; I thank God for His light and revelation that helps me to (hopefully) continually progress toward more perfect understanding. Others have kindly and patiently helped me correct my errors, for which I am grateful. I remember a group of workers conversing about scriptures at the table one day, and the overseer, well past 80, with over 60 years in the ministry, commented, "I never had received that understanding before," after hearing a verse explained. We are all in the process of growth, but I hope that the majority are praying that growth be helped and not hindered!" [end]

Oct 29, 1996

Dear Anon. Worker,

Thank you for your courage and comments here in this predominantly EX2x2 list. You are to be commended. I'm pleased with much of what you have said and very much saddened that I NEVER heard nor was taught the GRACE message all the while I professed. Nor did I EVER hear that Jesus was part of the triune God.

A couple of months after I left the fellowship I learned that Jesus, our Lord and Savior, was one of the persons in the Godhead. Namely that he is GOD come in the flesh. I shared this valuable information with a 2x2 friend, a worker, and the worker's parents. I thought they would be excited to learn WHO Jesus is, just like I was excited to learn WHO He is! What did I get? A look of surprise from my friend and her comment: "Well! So what if he *is* God!" From the sister worker I got no response and from her parents I was sneered at and mocked by their body language that I would think such a thing!

In March of this year I asked worker Jim Atcheson, to his face, who he believes Jesus is. He did everything but answer my question. Finally, I pressed him with "Please, just give me a YES or a NO--IS JESUS CHRIST GOD COME IN THE FLESH?" His answer: "Well, how could he be?!"

As I stated above I was quite pleased with your posts, Anon. Worker Person. I would like you to answer one question with a YES or a NO. I will not be happy with any other answer, should you choose to answer:

Background: First, we need to agree that the word SAVED means that we will inherit eternal life, i.e. go to Heaven. IF you agree with this definition of SAVED I ask you this question, again, to which I request a YES or NO answer:

Do you believe folks who are NOT a part of the fellowship (ie. the fellowship we are talking about on this list and of which I believe you are a worker) will be saved?

This question does NOT consider any qualifications, if there be any, for salvation. It is strictly a question of "must one be in THIS fellowship" to be saved?

Thank you in advance,

Sandi Gunther

Saskatchewan, Canada

October 29, 1996

Hi Worker Lurker!!!!

Welcome! Thanks for participating in this forum. I believe that your participation has the potential to encourage others to live more honestly with themselves, and for that I am extremely grateful.

While I respect and understand your wish to remain anonymous, I am terribly saddened by the conditions of your "fellowship" which do not accomodate open, honest, and candid discussion. My hope is that through the open expression of all who participate in this forum, others will find the courage to assert their true feelings and beliefs.

I have been alternately exhilirated and dismayed to find that what is openly preached and what is privately believed by the 2x2 workers are often entirely different things. This phenomena is confirmed by a multitude of people and sources. In my opinion, the only explanation for failing to openly declare one's carefully considered convictions is fear.

To me it is a telling indictment of the 2x2 system that fear is so pervasive and so powerful that supposed servents of God are willing to submit the open expression of their own beliefs and feelings to the authority of other men. I am truly baffled as to why a true believer would submit what they feel to be the word of God to the authority of someone with whom they are in direct disagreement.

What kind of respect does that show for God? Or for one's self?

Sincerely,

Kelley Gary

Georgia, USA

October 29, 1996

Dear Anonymous Worker,

You wrote:

>>Regarding attitudes regarding a "founder" of the fellowship, I grew up believing that the fellowship was a continuation of the New Testament church, though I cannot recall receiving specific teaching to either support or disprove this idea.<<

Your belief that the 2x2 system was a continuation of the "New Testament Church" was not formed in a vacuum. I assume you grew up in the 2x2 Church, in which case your beliefs would have been largely influenced by what you were explicitly told and implicitly led to believe. Like yourself, I grew up believing the 2x2 system was a continuation of the "New Testament Church." This belief was a direct result of the explicit and implicit statements supporting this lie, which were frequently made in Sunday and Wednesday fellowship meeting, in gospel meetings, in special meetings, at convention, and in casual conversation with "workers".

To this day, I have never heard a current active "worker" dare to publicly acknowledge the existance of William Irvine. In fact, Gene Nelson is the only "truther" who I have ever known to engage in a public discussion regarding William Irvine as the founder of the 2x2 system. While you do engage the question, you obviously feel compelled to remain anonymous. Why is that? Is it not perhaps that the 2x2 system and leadership is actively oppossed to an honest and open historical explication, and therefore seeks to intimidate more honest souls such as yourself?

>>I still believe the fellowship is a continuation of the New Testament church. I do not mean to say that I believe it has been passed from person to person in an unbroken chain through the centuries. I make no historical claims; that has no meaning to me one way or the other.<<

Which specifec "New Testament church"? As you note elsewhere, you are uncomfortable using the word "Trinity" as it is not mentioned in the bible. Neither does it contain the phrase "New Testament church." By your own logic then, you should perhaps be a little reluctant to use the phrase so unequivocably. Perhaps it would be more profitable to focus on Christ than on the form and practices of the various churches described in the New Testament.

>>Fellowship with God begins when a relationship is established between an individual and God Himself through faith in the Lord Jesus. Because of experiencing that relationship, I am also enjoying fellowship with this body of Christians in which I see a continuation of the practices of the church of the New Testament.<<

I venture to guess that you enjoy fellowship with "this body of Christians" because you were born into it. Your relationship with God is entirely another matter, and in my opinion, is possible not because of, but in spite of your association with the 2x2 system.

>>It is not possible 100 years later for any of us to know all the particulars regarding W. Irvine and his early companions, or exactly how they received the faith that they so zealously set out to share with others.<<

Despite the best efforts of George Walker, the Carrols, and other early workers, there are multiple converging sources of evidence which clearly indicate the manner in which the 2x2 Church began. It is true that with a little less paranoia from the early and current workers we would have a greater understanding. However, the evidence that remains is sufficent to warrant the conclusion that William Irvine was and is the founder.

>>One thing is certain: none of them considered themselves to be a founder.<<

I beg to differ. William Irvine clearly considered himself the founder as is made clear in his quote (also available on the R.I.S. website):

"God made me the first head of the family. He did the calling by me and now these past seven years He is doing the choosing, for many are called, few chosen." What else is the "first head" if not a founder? We can quibble over Irvine's inspiration if you wish, but he clearly considered himself to be the founder.

>>A quote from E. Cooney in the first decade of this century -- found on the R.I.S. website -- confirms this. (I'm sorry I don't have it immediately available to quote here, but most of you have seen it.)<<

Again, for the sake of truth (if not clarity!), I must flatly disagree. I seem to recall the same Edward Cooney you saying something like "Any account of the founding of this church without reference to William Irvine is dishonest." (Anybody know where that quote is in the Secret Sect? -- no more time to look tonight!)

[[ Administrative Note: Refer to The Secret Sect, page 116, from Edward Cooney's testimony: "An attempt has been made to give an account of God's dealing with us ignoring William Irvine. This is not honest." ]]

>>I have talked with elderly saints and workers -- now dead -- in whose homes W. Irvine himself visited in the first two decades of this century. He was never presented as a founder, simply as a worker visiting from the British Isles, and many were surprised to know, many decades later, than people were claiming him as the "founder" of our faith.<<

That William Irvine "was never presented" as the founder when visiting in the U.S. is hardly surprising. In fact, it is precisely the problem. In addition, not only was Irvine not presented as founder, it was later explicitly stated that the 2x2 church had no founder. (At least to both sets of my great-grandparents!) In my lifetime, not one active worker (to my knowledge) has ever publicly mentioned William Irvine by name, much less indicated him as having a role in the "founding" or "rebirth" of the 2x2 church.

>>I do not believe there was a "cover up" after his departure from the fellowship simply because there was nothing to cover up; Irvine and others received revelation from God and then were subsequently used as instruments to preach the message of the Lord Jesus.<<

If there was no "cover up" why is it that I had never heard of William Irvine until I left the 2x2 church? Wouldn't you think it absurd to say that there had been no coverup if the Mormons had never heard of Joesph Smith? Or if the Methodists had never heard of John Wesley? There was a massive, concerted, and highly effective effort to "cover up" the founding of the 2x2 church. The sheer mass of "manufactured confusion" offered as a historical explanation by the workers should be evidence enough of a coverup.

>>As they reached various parts of the world, they encounted others who received the same revelation -- some prior to their arrival, some upon hearing their message -- and fellowship was created between them.<<

The revelation of what? Christ? Or some other "Way" to heaven? Perhaps my question is answered by your next statement:

>>In every place I have been, whether in USA or in countries of far different cultures, we have met people who tell of receiving understanding from God regarding the pattern of ministry and worship of the N.T. church before "workers" ever arrived, and as a result we share in a common fellowship.<<

So it is the "Way" -- the pattern of ministry and worship -- and not Christ about which people have supposably had some revelation before the "workers" ever arrived.

Perhaps I should take your word for it, and merely comment on what is wrong with the statement in itself. But since I've never heard of this (Well I have heard it -- I just haven't seen any evidence!) I would like to have a more detailed explanation of such instances before making further commemt.

>>My own ancestors in the human family were among those who had understanding from God regarding the need to return to the faith of the New Testament, though from different religious organizations in different parts of the world.<<

Is that Faith in the "New Testament Church" or in Christ?

>>In my opinion, Wm. Irvine is not a "founder" any more than these widely scattered individuals are; we are all recipients of the divine eternal life that was in Christ and which has been extended to us by His grace.<<

Unfortunately, while William Irvine did found the Church I was raised in, but his works based ministry did NOT offer a message of Salvation by Grace.

>>If I did not have this foundation of faith and a living walk with God, my reaction upon reading much of the material written by those who would like to discredit the fellowship might be, "What a terrible group!!! Who would want to have anything to do with a fellowship like that?"<<

My purpose is not to discredit the 2x2 Chuch -- it has discredited itself with a hundred year history of lies, spiritual abuse, and self-righteous aggrandizement. Instead, I seek to encourage people to live honestly with themselves and with those around them.

>>However, my experience of the reality of the fellowship is far different from what some would like to portray. The sweetness of coming into His presence and feeling His touch, receiving His strength and direction and care and thus being united with others who are experiencing the same answers every question or doubt that arises.<<

You first address the reality of "the fellowship" (the 2x2 Church) -- but then praise the "sweetness of coming into His presence" (knowing God). Unless you mean to imply that one may only experience such "sweetness" in the 2x2 Church, I would encourage you to accept your own implicit premise: The 2x2 Church and Christ are two (very!) different things.

When those such as myself portray the "reality" of the 2x2 Church as less than "sweet" we are addressing the 2x2 Church -- not God. I hardly find the 2x2's legalistic and psychologically damaging practices to be spiritually profitable. On the contrary, I am intimately familiar with the damage the 2x2 Church inflicts on spirtual growth. Specifically, I am refering to those unwritten but well known rules which seek to govern how people look, which personal talents they may exercise, whom they may associate with, and what they may study, etc... at threat of eternal damnation for unacceptable deviations.

>>1 John 5:20 is a wonderful security, and it is reality. For those who have not experienced it, I pray one day they may, praying also that God would use me as His instrument in any way possible so that it may be so.<<

Shout your beliefs from the rooftops with love and respect for all creation!!!!

Sincerely,

Kelley Gary

October 29, 1996

In all the years in which I have gone to meetings and visited with the workers and friends, I definitely NEVER heard the messages which this worker says he is teaching in a continuing and clear manner. Neither has my husband, my mom and dad, my siblings, or my aunt who told my dad, 'I'll NEVER believe that Jesus is God!' Neither have others heard of salvation by grace who have told us we are now headed to a lost eternity because we are not connected to 'God's ministry.' (All of the above mentioned are 2nd or 3rd generation 2x2's, who are/were professing and devoted to "The Way" themselves for anywhere from 20 to 50+ years.) I could go on and on... these messages of the Triune God and salvation by grace were NEVER a part of the evident teachings of the group in any area where we ever visited, or among any of the workers who visited in our areas.

- Connie Jacobsen, Washington, USA

October 29, 1996

Dear anonymous worker,

You wrote:

>> In every place I have been, whether in USA or in countries of far different cultures, we have met people who tell of receiving understanding from God regarding the pattern of ministry and worship of the N.T. church before "workers" ever arrived, and as a result we share in a common fellowship. My own ancestors in the human family were among those who had understanding from God regarding the need to return to the faith of the New Testament, though from different religious organizations in different parts of the world.<<

Please, please tell me if, in this quote of your letter you mean to say that those from other churches can be saved!! Or are you simply saying that, by some miraculous divine intervention, that people "embedded" in "worldy" churches can find the salvation of the 2x2 system as well as those who hear it directly from a "real" worker?? Very curious...perhaps here you might be saying that even I, a 'horrible', 'wordly' Baptist can find salvation in my own faith??

I thank God that Jesus Christ died for my sins and that I am saved through the finished work of the cross....NOT ANY SYSTEM OF WORKERS AND HUMAN ACCOMPLISHMENT, NOT WORKER ADORATION!! You seemed to have neglected to mention this.

Julie Benac

Michigan, USA

October 29, 1996

Dear Anon...worker...

Hello, I am Dennis Jacobsen...

It amazes me that with all Jesus teaching and example, and the examples of so many who have gone before you are so fearful of identifying yourself...Men (and women) have been stoned, cut asunder, faced torture for speaking with bold confidence their faith and the Truth GOD has spoken to them...

I believe your desire to remain anonymous to be very (correct use of very, extremely) indicative of the doubts you really have that what you believe will be accepted by your co workers, and that is the reason you fail to address this forum publicly, openly and honestly...with courage of your convictions...

Some of us have indeed suffered greatly because of our own conviction and expression of these very things you say you believe... Yet you appear to lack the courage to identify these same convictions as yours... My question to you, sir, or ma'am, is "why?"... if indeed you have nothing to fear?....

Something does not ring true with you, I do not know what, and I do not believe you speak truthfully..sir... or ma'am... It will take you publicly identifying yourself to convince me that you are indeed honest...

Sincerely,

Dennis Jacobsen,

Washington, USA

October 30, 1996

I was absolutely stunned to read the second letter from an "anonymous worker-lurker" who began with the following:

>>The following thoughts are not intended to be an exact representation of anyone's beliefs but mine.<<

While I rejoiced to see that this worker seems to have an understanding of scripture, of God in three persons and salvation by grace, it is absolute balderdash (for want of a better word) to say that these are the beliefs held and taught by the 2x2s!!!

After being saved by the Grace of God through the finished work of my Lord Jesus Christ on the cross, I went back to a couple of the workers here in Australia to tell of the true message of salvation and our own merits playing no part.

I was met with scorn and derision. I was told that any assurance I had of salvation was "presumptious" and "arrogant". When I spoke of Paul's assurance (NT) of his salvation from trusting in the blood of Christ, I was told that this was not the case, that Paul would instead have just trusted in God's mercy. For all the good preaching he had done I suppose.

When I spoke of Jesus being both God and man I was also scorned. I read the passage from Hebrews - "Unto the Son He says, Thy Throne, O God, shall last forever..." (forgive if I have slightly misquoted, no bible handy right now). The younger worker actually laughed at me, and said sneeringly: "Oh, that's just a clever NIV translation, WE use the OKJ version." I asked what his bible said, and he opened the passage but refused to read. Three times, I asked him "What does your's say?", but he refused to read it. Eventually he said "Well, it just depends how you interpret the word 'God'". !!!???!!!

So I asked "Would you call Jesus your Lord and your God as I do?" The older worker immediately jumped on me for that one, he was absolutely horrified. "If you believe that", he answered, "You are the antichrist". Can't be more direct than that!!

The workers then told me they were so sorry that I had been so terribly deceived and gone astray, and told me to just go home and pray that God would open my blind eyes. I told them in just as certain terms that He already had, and I was sorry they did not believe His Word in scripture.

On the whole it was a very unpleasant experience, and I was stunned at the scorn I was given, even by one of the oldest and most respected Workers in Australia who is being lined up to take over as Overseer of New South Wales in Sydney.

My parents had not even heard of the 'Trinity' until I explained it to them recently, and believe in just "doing our best" to get to heaven. No assurance with that one of course!

I believe that a lot of the problem stems from 2x2s using terminology that appears like sound doctrine, but means something else entirely. I have still not met any 2x2 who has an assurance of salvation, because they are still trusting in their own life for it.

I professed for quite a few years in the 2x2s, thought myself very spiritual, and "understood" the special way I belonged to, that others outside did not. When my eyes were finally opened I was devastated as to the extent of my deception, and only then could discern all the false teachings I had heard since I was born. It has been a very long and painful journey, and my family cannot accept the doctrines I hold to, because they are condemned by the workers! Initially my parents thought I had just accepted some strange new teaching exclusive to the new church I joined, but are now thoroughly confused about the fact that my beliefs seem to be held by Christians across the world from many denominations!

Maybe things are changing in the 2x2s in some parts of the world, and I pray it will, but I find it very hard to believe. The 2x2s want to remain independent and exclusive of all other Christians, an 'elite' group with special ministry and legalist codes of conduct. And if you take these things away, there is no church remaining! I pray that all workers who do receive real Truth will expose false teaching and preach the Gospel of Grace. The worker who wrote the letter I initially referred to obviously wants to remain anonymous. Is he/she afraid of being condemned/reprimanded by the 2x2 powers that be? Afraid to speak the truth for themselves, showing a little more independence of mind than is wanted from a worker?

You may not believe the 2x2s to be a cult, and maybe that particular word has a lot more negative connotations, but the 2x2s have bred a race of people obedient to an authority other than God who have not been taught to think, judge, discern, or use their own consciences usefully. They have not even been taught to study scripture, but rather to submit to a particular interpretation, and justify everything to that interpretation, whether it be true or not.

The effects of my leaving the group were acute, both physically and mentally. I suffered a terrible stomach cramping and nausea (for months), anxiety/panic attacks in public, constant trembling and spontaneous crying, anywhere and everywhere. My work supervisor and Director can testify to the nervous wreck I became, I was unable to cope at work for weeks, and had to take a lot of time off. I lost a lot of weight and a lot of hair. (Not good for a 19 year old girl). That was all 3 years ago now, and I believe I have made a full recovery, but the effects I suffered still haunt my memory, and I find it very hard to discuss without breaking down. I was told by my parents and the workers that I would eventually come back, people always did, and terrible things would happen to me on the 'outside'.

I am thankful I now truly know God, and trust my life to His hands.

Elizabeth Coleman.

Canberra, Australia

October 29, 1996

Dear Anon Worker,

Thank you for taking the time and exercising the courage to write to the members and ex-members of the fellowship who are on the internet list.

In view of some things said in your letter, I would now urge you to adopt the policy of our Lord and Master which he stated in Jn:18:20, "I spake openly to the world; I ever taught in the synagogue, and in the temple, whither the Jews always resort; and in secret have I said nothing." I don't see how you can really do that while you remain anonymous.

There are three major ideas which I find in your letter.

1.) You seem to be saying that the majority of the workers believe the same basic doctrines many of us ex-professing people do, such as a Trinitarian view of God and justification by faith alone.

2.) You seem to be implying that since the majority of the workers believe the same basic doctrines as many of us do, we who have left the fellowship have left for no valid reason. In other words, we have merely "imagined" that the majority of the workers deny the deity of Jesus and the principle of justification through faith alone.

3.) You seem to be saying that since the majority of workers believe as you do, you are able to openly teach orthodox Biblical doctine as you go from place to place.

If the above three ideas are true, then in my opinion your anonymity is in direct contradiction to those ideas. In other words what reason is there for you to remain anonymous?

Do you think you must either re-examine those three ideas to see if they are true, or else remove your cloke of anonymity and be open and honest as our Lord stated he was in John 18:20?

I am trying to say these things as kindly as possible, since I myself have spent 55 of my 56 years in the fellowship; spent ten years in the work; and have a feel for the way things operate. So I know some of the forces which make you want to retreat into anonymity. However, I also now know the joyous relief and liberty in Christ that comes from being able to speak or write my beliefs and express my faith openly to anyone. Until a person is able to do that he is under a certain bondage. It took me a long time to overcome that bondage, so don't despair if you find the same to be true. We will be praying for you as others have prayed for many of us.

Sincerely,

Paul Abenroth, Walla Walla, WA

October 30, 1996

To the anonymous Worker-Lurker:

Thanks for sharing your thoughts with those on the "List." I have a few responses.

You state: "I am not trying to set myself up as a spokesman for the fellowship in any way." I think you attempted to do just that, and you are to be commended. I know it is difficult when there are so many diverse beliefs held among the leaders.

I would like to hear some definition of terms to be sure we're hearing exactly what you are saying. You stated: "I believe and teach salvation by grace through faith alone." Just because the Ency. of Amer. Religions says "Grace is stressed," doesn't tell me what is stressed about grace. I've heard all sorts of ideas about grace. So:

What does "salvation by grace" mean to you? What does the phrase "through faith alone" mean to you?

Our area doesn't have the study you listed. I wish they did. Would you define what "Saved/justified by faith" means to you?

I wish you had the freedom to give your name and speak openly of your beliefs as Peter, Paul, and other apostles and disciples of Jesus. I'm so glad they identified themselves and left on record what they believe. It is not easy to take a public stand, but we have heard much criticism from those in the fellowship towards ex-members who have spoken without identifying themselves.

I'm looking forward to your thoughts on the above.

Joan Daniel

Oregon, USA

October 30, 1996

Dear Anon. Worker-Lurker:

I began a long letter to you last night but this morning that verse came to me "Do not cast your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, turn again & rend you." Matt 7:6. I read some of the postings to you of how others (like we) opened up our hearts, bared our souls to workers & then were sneered at & treated with scorn & yes even DISGUST!! Your theory as to the history doesn't hold water! Contradictions abound all over the world. The same is true of your thinking about the trinity (the word Bible isn't in scripture either). If you & some other workers are teaching this--your message isn't getting through! Most of the workers/friends openly deny that Jesus is God, say absolutely not, etc. We know Leslie White & Carson Cowan have preached such--yet when they've been in IN for conventions, they steer clear of that topic. Are workers given a list of things they can touch on & not touch on when coming to a convention? You say you preach "saved by grace" then why all the legalistic thinking? Why do truthers still hold so tightly to appearance when hearts can be so cold? Why has Sydney Holt reportedly preached in his area that denim is a fabric for men only? Women in IN--young & old wear denim ALL the time. In my mind, I almost equate denim skirts in truthers to black stockings. That was one of the first things that left my closet when I left mtg. Inconsistencies abound!!

I can see there are some changes happening in the 2x2s but I still can't see it lining up with scripture. Our former elder said "without the ministry, there would be nothing". I can't understand that kind of statement yet itsstll being repeated--the old patterns are there in spite of what you say. We thought in the beginning of our quest that the system could be salvaged if things were changed to line up scripturally. I think most of us have given up hope of that. That's why my sentiments are similar to Dale Knott's about praying that others will hear things that don't sound right at convention. I was deceived, my parents, g'parents, friends, relatives--many who died still believing what workers had always told them--therefore I pray that finally the "truth will come out". Forget the subtle little hints, inferences & halftruths--or speaking one thing in one area, another in the next or avoiding it. Be open--BE HONEST. I think that was one of my biggest surprises in going to church. Things are open: financial statements, preachers salaries, money spent IS accounted for. One missionary from our church has left the mission field & cannot return again because of an affair. It is known & we pray that brother can be restored. It's like the qualifications given for apastor in Titus. David could be a king but he would not have qualified to be a pastor; because of sin in his life. Yet we all know of things workers have been involved in & they have been allowed to continue & to victimize again & again. Why not use the scripture as it was intended for such matters. Trust God to supply more workers instead of keeping those with problems they haven't overcome. My prayer is that the Love of Jesus will abound in ALL our lives--in spite of us.

In His Love,

Joetta Heiser

Indiana, USA

October 30, 1996

Dear Anon,

My wife and I are still in the fellowship. We understand the reason for your not being "in the open" in everything. We have been conditioned for decades in our fellowship to live this way. We have been taught to lead double lives. No, tripple, even quadruple lives. One life before God. Another before the workers/"saints". (Our daughter wrote in Reflected Truth that she took a grocery sack-lunch to school. When she got to school, the content of the bag became clothes she would not want the workers to see her in. The clothes were jeans which the workers said were abhorrent to God..We did not know this happened. We would have had her do this openly, but we were responsible for the "conditioning" she had gotten in all the meetings we took her to from babyhood through college).

We want to thank you for having the courage to even present anything on this forum - even if it is anonymous.

We encourage you to continue to present your views on this forum. It is very helpful to have our thoughts and intents challenged before others. Often "conflicts clarify". We are always open to correction by God, and Godly people.

We were so happy to see your post, then so disheartened at the same time. We wish we would have "grown up" in your "field". If so, we would have known Jesus Christ as our Savior. As it was, we were taught that "the Truth" - our System - was "God's Way" and in it was the only hope of eternal salvation. And even at that, there was little chance we could be saved, because we had to try to keep the worker rules - which were ever changing, and which we could never really understand in the light of the scriptures. It just didn't make sense.....the Matthew 10 "Method".....and basing our salvation upon a method of preaching and a system of homeless preachers. It was not the Savior they preached - they preached "methods". One of our early "enlightenments" was to think of these "methods" and think,"We should call our selves Methodists" . . . and no surprise since George Walker was a Methodist.

I must digress here: A State Overseer told us within this past year something quite enlightening. He said that when he was in a workers Meeting with George Walker, George said that we can not say that people in other denominations can not be saved! George continued, "Because, I received something from God when I was a Methodist. "WOW! I sure wish George would have told that to my grandfather who professed in about 1909 in Nebraska. I wish he would have told that to my Mother who is now 91.5 yrs old. One thing she remembers of George W. is that he said "airplanes are of the Devil. If God had intended us to fly, he would have given us wings." She said, "Then, it wasn't long until he was flying all over the country!". So much for the shifting sands of our doctrines and beliefs. This example is not critical, just typical. Some could see this as petty. Others may see this as typical of stupid teachings that are intended to control the thoughts and actions of an oppressed people. I wish that Overseer, and other workers, would tell this to us now "from the platform".

We continue to ask questions and discuss the various issues in our fellowship. While doing this a few days ago, an elderly "saint" indicated I was going to Hell for such questions and thoughts. When I asked that person if others out side of our fellowship were going to Heaven, she said she "would not judge that, for that is God's job". Whew! Another Overseer told us within the past year, regarding others being saved,: "I'm going to leave that up to God". Another said, "Oh, I'm certain others will be saved. There is no way we workers can get to all the people of ______(foreign country)_____." Another said, "If anyone in one of the denominations is saved, they will find their way into fellowship with us (in our home meetings). Other said, "This (our group at convention) is God's one and ONLY true way!" (Convention '96). Yep, it sure is the same the worldover! The same inconsistencies and cover-ups.

One pleasure I get from going to meetings now is the ability to express my joy in Christ Jesus as my Savior, even though there are "rebuttals" such as, "our only hope of heaven is to follow Jesus' example". One Sunday morning, Bonnie asked what I was going to speak on. I replied, "The same as last week: JESUS!" It is amazing how God's grace and His Son's sacrifice as payment of our sins just "pops" out of the scripture now. It was always there - but it was clouded over by the teachings of our system of meetings in the home, workers, 2 and 2, and hair up in a bun (or at least up on the head), jewelry worn only in certain places, etc. I recently saw one of the young ladies we meet with at her job. Her hair was DOWN and she looked nice. I have seen her MANY times and it is always UP. Of course, when it was UP, that was when she was in the "worker approval mode and meeting situation". I truly felt sorry for her......and for our daughter who had to be put through this mess; having her dress and hair detract from the natural beauty she was gifted by God. She is now a Christian and recovering from the effects of "God's one and only true way". We can now communicate as never before. If professing parents could only know what they have put their children through; the separation they cause by not talking openly with them about God's Way of salvation (only Jesus death/blood); by not talking honestly with them about all aspects of our fellowship; by not talking unadulterated scripture with them; by saying by their actions and words that "to have our approval, you must continue to go to meetings as we do!" These past couple of years, we have "found" our three children, now as adults, and are so happy they put their trust in the Lord Jesus as their redeemer. They are now having life more abundantly; not a-BUN-dantly.

We are not "bitter" in the worker sense. As we read Webster's Dictionary, "Bitter" is to sense an injustice done. We are distressed by the lies the workers have passed to us, and ABOUT us.....but that goes with the territory of being honest, and asking honest questions. We have more questions, but one question we do NOT have is "What must we do to be saved?" We know that one. There is NOTHING we can DO. Because the Bible tells us so: We are saved by grace, it is a gift of God; not of works... not of workers rules... not of meetings, meetings, meetings, conventions, conventions, conventions. (By the way, the word is savED. Not hope we "might" be saved. Not "maybe". As a "neighbor" up the street said, when we asked him and his wife the reason for their hope for salvation. He and his wife instantaneously and simutaneously said, "Jesus is, the Bible tells me so!" ....and they have not met a "worker" yet.)

We have had scripture quoted to us so many times to the effect thatwe should "forsake not the assembling of yourselves together". Now, we know that was instruction to Christians. For Christians. Not for an exclusive group to stay exclusively together and exclude other of God's children. Not to act and live as if every one else was going to Hell, and afraid to tell them so. Contrary to workers teaching, we now believe there are many Christians in our community. We do not "forsake" meeting and talking with them. How do we know they are Christians? We take them at their word. If they believe with their heart and confess with their mouth that Jesus is Lord, then we take them for Christians. They may be lying to us, but God knows. We have found so many wonderful, God fearing, people who we will no longer "forsake", simply because they do not go to home meetings and have their hair up in a bun nor have same-sex pairs of preachers who are "guaranteed food and lodging" as their spiritual guides.

With love to you - even though we don't know your name at this time.We do love you, because you are one of our "neighbors" whom our Savior commanded us to love.

Having professed for decades, it is truly wonderful to finally be a Christian.

Larry and Bonnie Lindemann

Missouri, USA

October 30, 1996

Dear Anon,

I do not mean to sound repetitious, but my expereince of being rased in the2x2s has not been the same as yours. When I was growing up I was NEVER taught that Jesus was anything more than just a man who was totally consecrated to God. There was NEVER any mention of Jesus being referred to as God in the flesh. The Holy Spirit was never referred to as "He" but rather as "it." I do not think that there was ever any Triune understanding of God given by any worker young or old. The workers spent hours, days, months in my home while I was in high school. There were at least six-eight workers in my home daily for a long period of time as they were working on the hymn book project back in the mid to late 80s. We had "bible studies" around the kitchen table often, and never once did I hear who Jesus Chirst really is, and what He has done for me. Rather, I had faith in a system that was based on a format, and eventually it was no longer the rational thing to be involved in so I quit. I still did not know about the Trinity. Sure, I had heard the word, but I did not even know what it meant. I had never heard the concept of Christ dying as our substitute...literally dying in our place. When I was eventually confronted with these concepts I was amazed. I knew the books of the Bible, but I did not know what was in them!!! I knew some stuff like Matthew 10 and some of the parables, but I in no way had an understanding of the Bible like my own 5 year old son already has.

When I confronted my parents with things like the Deity of Jesus Christ, and the FINISHED work of Christ on the Cross, and Salvation by grace they absolutely disagreed with me. Workers I have personally talked to have concurred that Jesus is not God.

Do you really teach these things? Do you only disagree on the format of worship and the form of ministry and the appearance of people? DO you agree with "orthodox" Christianity?

Sincerely,

Roger Stip

California, USA

October 31, 1996

Hi Anonymous Worker,

You write:

>>(It is of interest that D. Chapman's website recognizes that Arthur Piepkorn's scholarly study, Profiles in Belief, offers the most accurate and unbiased picture of the fellowship. That study readily recognizes that the fellowship believes in the "orthodox" trinity. The aforementioned website also states the opinion that the fellowship is NOT a cult on either theological or sociological grounds. )<<

D. Chapman's opinion as expressed on the website you mention, while welcome and appreciated, is not the final authority on what does or does not constitute a cult. Nor does the appreciation for Arthur Piepkorn's writing in any way lessen the value of the multitude of other well researched and well written material. It seems to me that you are implying that much of the material written about the 2x2 Church is of dubious quality. Are you suggesting that "The Secret Sect" etc... are biased, unobjective, and lacking in rigorous research? If so, on what grounds? Whatever the case, we should base our conclusions on all available evidence, not just that which confirms our prejudice.

>>I believe and teach salvation by grace through faith alone. I could add that I teach this vigorously, since without this basic truth, other teaching would be meaningless. Frequent messages on this subject are always well-received; I have never heard any rebuttals suggesting that any workers believe differently.<<

It should be clear to you at this point that many of the people who participate on this list did not hear the message of "salvation by grace through faith alone" while in the 2x2's. Moreover, many have been ridiculed, roundly abused, and dismissed from the "work" and "the fellowship" for advocating this view. My own family scoffs at the idea, dismissing it as the rationalization of "once saved always saved self-righteous Baptists." Meanwhile they continue to jump through the various hoops held up by the workers in hopes of being saved. In addressing this issue at the 1982 California Young Peoples meeting Eldon Tenniswood responded as follows:

Question: When someone asks if we think we are saved ... what is a good answer?

Eldon's Answer: "God is the judge. Remind them of what Jesus said in Mt.7:21: 'Not everyone that sayeth unto me Lord, Lord, shall enter into the Kingdom of Heaven, but he that _doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven._ Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? And in thy name cast out devils? In thy name done many wonderful works? And then I will profess unto them, I never knew you; depart from me, ye that work iniquity.'"

Not exactly a ringing endorsement of the views you seem to advocate. Has Eldon changed his opinion since he made this statement? Have you ever discussed this with Eldon? Would you publicly contradict him (at convention for instance), if he made such a statement in your presence?

>>I know no one in the fellowship who would teach otherwise.<<

Do you know Eldon Tenniswood?

>>Yes, there have been many mistakes made through the years by many individuals. And if anyone wants to read about a lot of mistakes, they don't have to look any farther than the pages of the Bible.<<

You haven't acknowledged a single specifec "mistake" of the 2x2 ministry. What mistakes are you talking about? The majority of ex-2x2's I know feel like the lies and evasions regarding William Irvine as the founder was a major "mistake." You state that Irvine isn't the founder, and there was no "cover-up." The majority of ex-2x2's feel the exclusionary teachings of the 2x2 church are a "mistake." You haven't addressed the issue. The majority of the ex-2x2's feel that the legalistic elements of social control are a "mistake." You speak only of the "sweetness" of your experience in "the fellowship." If not these "mistakes" what are you refering to? And what makes you think they are "mistakes" as oppossed to the norm for the 2x2's?

>>By the way, I never had to "sneak" into a Christian bookstore to buy the New International Version or any other version of the Bible. I have always frequented Christian bookstores wherever I've been, buying Bibles of many versions as well as any other number of products on sale there.<<

How about the writing of C.S. Lewis or Hal Lindsey or John Shelby Spong? Do you have to "sneak" to read such material? Do you encourage your parishioners to investigate other Christian literature and programming (radio and/or TV)? Surely Bible reference books are considered to be acceptable and profitable? I hope you do all of the above, but know from my own experience and from the workers' own words, that the majority do no such thing. Again, I point to the words of Eldon Tenniswood, who clearly implies that even something as innocuous as a Bible Reference book is dangerous. From the same 1982 California Young People's Meeting:

Question: Is it all right to read Bible reference books?

Eldon's Answer: "We must be careful when we read and study ... If you want to look up the New Testament Church you can't find it. God has hidden that from the wise and prudent and revealed it unto babes."

>>You don't have to go to convention to find about the dangers of the Internet; just pick up a copy of Reader's Digest or Newsweek! Thousands of saints and workers all over the world are using the Internet for its convenience of communication. That doesn't mean that we won't be warning people of its dangers, just as other conscientious people in every walk of life are doing.<<

What do you consider the dangers of the internet to be? Newsweek and Reader's Digest certainly haven't mentioned Christian apologetics, philosophical inquiry, cult awareness, and the facilitation of communication as being amoungst these dangers. Do you feel that the web pages and this mailing list which are maintained by ex-2x2's are "dangerous?" Do any of the other workers feel this way? Would you encourage the "friends" to actively examine such information for themselves?

>>Some recent comments I've heard about what workers do and don't mention make me see that it's a no-win situation; if we do speak a word of warning about anything, we're "meddling in the saints' affairs." If we keep silent, we're "ignoring important current issues that need to be addressed."<<

If you want a win/win situation, encourage people to think actively, live honestly, and relate with others responsibly!!!!

Sincerely,

Kelley Gary

October 30, 1996

To the List:

I am about half way through reading REFLECTED TRUTH. Just have to comment that what I am reading reassures me that what I heard/absorbed in the "Truth" is contrary to what Worker-lurker posted here the other day.

Along with others I am wondering WHY this worker feels a need to remain anonymous when posting to this List.

Sandi

October 31, 1996

Dear Worker-Lurker,

I am visiting Sandi and using her computer to respond to your phony-bologna. I've been thinking about the "GRACE" prayer we used to sing at convention:

I have no idea where you have been all your life! But I know where I was for over half a century (in the 2x2s!) and although I have sung Grace many times and heard the word "Grace" many times I was never shown, nor did I have any comprehension, of Grace!!

FYI, Grace is unconditional love and unmerited favor. NEVER, in over 50 years, was I ever shown unconditional love and unmerited favor. I was put down, rejected, condemned and browbeaten by those who insist that they are the only true administers of God's Grace!!!!!

For you to suggest to ME, and anyone else on this List, that THE workers preach salvation through GRACE is the most assinine, ridiculous nonsense that I have ever heard!

I would say, with regard to the above song, that the only way possible "to continue in thy [2x2] pathway" would be through blind obedience! Grace has nothing to do with continuing in any kind of a way/system! It is by Grace that we are SAVED! And for you to suggest, under any circumstances that the workers, or even a small, small, minority of workers, preach Jesus Christ as the ONLY way to salvation is as big a LIE as the no-founder story!

If, in fact you are a worker (which I doubt), and you continue to preach the "Salvation by Grace" message, you will not be a worker for very long.

As far as preaching that Jesus is God, I had never heard the concept. I have listened to hundreds of workers, been to over 50 years of conventions, my father was an elder and the workers lived in our house. At the age of 53 when my brother asked me who Jesus was I had absolutely no idea!

Your letter was very amusing to say the least and I have no idea who you are trying to convince. While your views are somewhat orthodox, it insults my intelligence for you to suggest that this is normal 2x2 doctrine.

How can you justify bondage and legalism in connection with Grace? You have to be in the 2x2s to receive salvation by a WORKER. The women have a strict dress code and it should be called "the DO NOT sect." Whenever I was asked about my faith by an "OUTSIDER", I could only tell them what I did NOT believe in, and the list was LONG:

1. We do not watch TV.

2. We do not have a radio.

3. We do not go to shows.

4. We do not go to dances.

5. We do not smoke.

6. We do not drink.

7. We do not wear our hair down.

8. We do not cut our hair.

9. We do not wear make-up.

10. We do not wear jewelry.

11. We do not believe in ministers that do not go out in two's.

12. We do not believe in church buildings.

13. We do not know if we're going to heaven or not.

14. We do not know if we are saved.

.......AND....WE DO NOT KNOW WHAT GRACE IS!!!!!

I am not a coward, nor since leaving the 2x2s have I found it necessary to cover anything up, so I would welcome a letter from you at any time.

Marjorie L. Reynolds

Alberta, Canada

October 31, 1996

Dear Anon. Worker-Lurker:

This is my second letter to you but just wanted to let you know I wasn't incorrect about one of the things I wrote you yest. On a whim, I decided to call our former elder. He & his wife are now retired & I know that they went to many conventions this past year. I knew he was DEFINITELY AGAINST the belief that Jesus is God. So I told him I'd like to read the portion of your letter which dealt with how you & the majority of the workers are teaching the trinity principle. Well he BLEW UP--but then isn't that a typical reaction. He told me he wanted to read or hear nothing (by the way--y'all are doing a superb job with keeping some people away from reading things!). He probably ranted & raved 10 minutes at least in which time I told one of my girls goodbye since she was going to work, & another goodby as she was going to babysit. He ranted on & on. I finally told him very calmly that he didn't have to hear or listen to anything, I merely wanted to know if he had found there to be a change in thinking as you implied by your letter. He finally allowed me to quote from the letter but was still emphatically against the trinity!! He did say he disagreed with the appearance thing--that you should make the inside clean first & that truthers weren't far ahead of the Amish insome of the traditions.

It blows my mind that I spoke with a man recently that our daughter babysits for who is going through a divorce. This man spoke eloquently about his newfound belief in God, told me about being baptized just a couple of weeks ago. I don't agree with everything his church believes in but we could talk. I didn't get mad--he didn't get mad become explosive, angry--we just spoke on the phone. I consider him a brother in Christ & I believe he too considers me a believer. Yet I cannot speak with truthers or workers without the situation becoming explosive. The only reason I called our former elder was to ask a question--I was under the wrong impression evidently, that as elder he would be the person to talk to (doesn't the Bible TEACH that?) Just wanted to touch base with you again.

In His Love,

Joetta Heiser, Indiana, USA

October 31, 1996

Dear Worker-Lurker:

Wow!! How to describe the emotions that your post caused for me!! How to even identify them myself!?! A combination of feelings... getting kicked in the stomach, extreme anger, deep sadness, a sense of having been violated, an overwhelming awareness of all the old "stuff" rising to the surface once again that I had thought I had already dealt with and put to rest... I suppose it will always be there, just below the surface, waiting to be triggered with the right set of circumstances. I would wish that were not true, but perhaps that is a selfish wish...

Paul understood the value of these emotions being close to the surface when he spoke the following, "Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of compassion and the God of all comfort, who comforts us in all our troubles, so that we can comfort those in any trouble with the comfort we ourselves have received from God... if we are comforted, it is for your comfort, which produces in you patient endurance of the same sufferings we suffer... And our hope for you is firm, because we know that just as you share in our sufferings, so also you share in our comfort." (2 Cor 1:3-7)

God is indeed the Father of compassion and the God of all comfort... as He has comforted before, so He will be faithful to comfort again... and, perhaps, the renewal of our "suffering" keeps us better able to sympathise with those who are now going through what we have already passed through.

Dear Bill, I appreciated much your words: "Every person I know who is no longer in the way, has searched long and hard and honestly for a way to stay in, rather than for a way to leave." How very true, Bill! And thank you so much for that expression of understanding!

I have been grateful for the many responses that have been made to your posts already, Worker-Lurker... perhaps all that needs to be said has been said already. But I feel compelled to add my "two bits."

You wrote: "...I grew up believing that the fellowship was a continuation of the New Testament church, though I cannot recall receiving specific teaching to either support or disprove this idea."

Kelley's response to that comment below was pretty much a mirror image of Brian's first comments:> Your belief that the 2x2 system was a continuation of the "NewTestament> Church" was not formed in a vacuum. I assume you grew up in the 2x2 Church, in> which case your beliefs would have been largely influenced by what you were> explicitly told and implicitly led to believe. Like yourself, I grew up> believing the 2x2 system was a continuation of the "New Testament Church."> This belief was a direct result of the explicit and implicit statements> supporting this lie, which were frequently made in Sunday and Wedensday> fellowship meeting, in gospel meetings, in special meetings, at convention, and> in casual conversation with "workers".

Brian and I (and many others we have talked with) remember clearly (and often) hearing very SPECIFIC teaching regarding this matter. It was often spoken of with great pride that unlike all the "false"churches out there, OUR ONLY WAY had no founder but Jesus; that it had continued the same without interruption from the day Jesus sent out the 12 two and two in Matt 10.

As most on this list know, not only did Brian and I (and all 4 of our parents) grow up in this group, but Brian still has 3 siblings in the work as well as parents on one of the convention grounds. It always amazes me when those still in the system try to talk to us and tell us things we know are not true as though we were newcomers to the group with no previous personal knowledge of the beliefs and activities of the group. (I have to say that your posts felt like more of that sort of treatment to me.)

Brian quit "professing" 7 years before I decided to leave the group. He quit "participating" without asking many questions of himself or even thinking too deeply about WHY he was making the choice he made. After I left and we began to attend a Bible-believing and Bible-teaching church, he was amazed and delighted to hear the truth about what the Bible teaches!

As we started trying to talk with our family and friends about our new-found understanding and joy, we quickly realized there were a lot of barriers... what we thought would be so clear, they had their own ready answer for. Brian decided he needed to have a clearer understanding of what the group's beliefs really were... which seems funny, when he grew up in the system and professed for many years himself... but it is the sad truth that many know nothing about the beliefs of the group except their own beliefs which they project on the entire group, because, afterall, there IS perfect unity in "The Way."

So began Brian's "trek" toward understanding... he attended several conventions, special meetings and gospel meetings. He visited with quite a few of the friends and workers... including, private visits with different workers about their messages from the platform and what their beliefs were. I think I'm being quite accurate when I say that of all the different ones we have talked with, we found 3 people who SEEMED to believe in God in Three Persons and/or salvation by grace when the discussion first began. However, in each case, as the discussion continued and terms were more clearly defined, the group members backed down from their original statements and it became evident that they could not say that Jesus is God, nor could they say that there were no requirements for salvation apart from believing in Jesus... they couldn't get away from the need for their system of ministry and "fellowship."

As others have expressed, we have also heard the express denials..."I'll NEVER believe that Jesus is God." "Jesus is our ELDER BROTHER, He is our FRIEND! Jesus is not God!" "You know what is right... You have stepped out from under God's ministry. You have made a decision that is taking you directly to a lost eternity." I could continue with the quotes, but they were painful enough the first time around.

As others have said, we don't remember a single time when a worker from our own area or a visiting worker (or circulating notes) made ANY mention of Jesus being God or of salvation by grace... a great effort was generally made to "help" us to understand that "believing" meant "obeying." In my opinion (and in my experience in the group) the sermon of Ken Pagington's which Kevin recently posted to the list is a perfect example of the works-salvation message generally taught in the 2x2 group.

I think you can tell from the responses you have received from many "corners" of the country and world that what you claim to be true in your area, is definitely NOT true around the world. Also, because of the lack of clear definition of terms, it is possible to BELIEVE you and another are saying the same thing when in fact you are not.

For instance, I always believed that Jesus was "divine," but I had no idea of the true significance of such terminology until I came to understand who Jesus really is... there is only One Who is Divine and that is God! Because of our experience, if you THINK you are in agreement with another in the group regarding these issues, we would urge you to pursue the conversation and approach it from different angles with clearly defined terms and clear speaking... that is if you really want to KNOW whether others believe as you do rather than just going through a PRETENSE of "proving" that they do... and, maybe, in your area (whereever that may be) people really DO believe as you say they do...but from our experience, it surely is difficult for us to imagine that such is true!

I would also echo the sentiments of others... I wish you had the freedom to identify yourself on this forum... but we welcome you here and hope you will continue to "listen" and "speak." Thanks, Gene, for acting as a "safe conduit!"

Praising Him Whom to know is life eternal!!

Connie Jacobsen, Washington, USA

October 31, 1996

Dear Anon Worker,

Your letter contains the following statement:

"I believe and teach salvation by grace through faith alone....I have never heard any rebuttals suggesting that any workers believe differently."

It is obvious to me that Jack Carroll believed differently. I can't think of any other worker whose word carried more authority in the western USA, western Canada, and even in some other countries.

Here is his pronouncement:

"...These Israelites would not have had the strength to leave Egypt unless they were willing to feast upon the lamb. It was not suffcient for them to be under the blood.They had to eat the lamb as well as take shelter under the blood. There is no greater mistake than for any preacher or teacher to tell men and women they can be saved and go to heaven simply because they believe Christ died for them, that His blood was shed for them. The simple fact of the crucifixion will not deliver men from the power of the world. It was not sufficient for the children of Israel to seek shelter under the blood, they had to eat the lamb as the Lord commanded...."

If you wish to see the whole transcript from which this exerpt is taken itis readily available.

Sincerely,

Paul Abenroth

Walla Walla, Washington, USA

31 October 1996

To the Unknown Worker

Greetings to you friend.

I just read your posting to Gene which came to all of us. I admire you so much for the thoughts. My heart, however desires to know who you are. But that you must decide for yourself.

There are so many questions I have that I wish could be asked in person. I think most of us have concerns because our experiences are not in harmony with your words. And your words are powerful. As I read I wanted to invite you to the Church Carla and I attend. I think you would be most at home there. As I read I wondered what would keep you from meeting with us. And at the same time wondered what you had in common with those in the fellowship. I hope your representation of what workers believe is true. But for now I remain unconvinced. I will look forward to hearing more. Would your travels ever bring you to Mt. Peak convention here in Midlothian? I would love to see you and assure you I would keep your identity private if you request. You will be on my mind a great deal.

Please forgive my scepticism. It not directed to you personally. I believe you are being genuine and forthright.

One more thought and then I need to go scrape these whiskers off my faceand get to work. It is one thing to grow in the faith and quite another havingpeople in leadership positions who hold positions contradictory to those you describe. Leaders, although still growing should be well established in the fundamentals of faith. I will give you more specific examples of what I am talking about tomorrow or Saturday. And I will respond to what I mean concerning people coming after Mt. Peak convention with questions.

Given your beliefs as stated it is an honor to call you brother. I look forward to visiting with you in this forum if it only be one way or through Gene. I admire you greatly and long for the day others would be so open.

Because of Grace!

Dale Knott

1 November 1996

Fred & Ruth Miller are the distributors for "The Secret Sect" in the U.S. Since they don't have the capability of subscribing to the list, I FAXed them the second letter from Anon. Worker and asked for their comments. They follow:

"There are some puzzling things about the anonymous worker's letter. He begins by saying he is not speaking for the fellowship on the subjects he refers to. But why does he hesitate to do so? Would he hesitate to speak for the group regarding meeting in the home and requiring preachers without a home? Of course not!

So why is he not ready to speak for the group on subjects as fundamentally basic as: Who Jesus is and How to get salvation? We submit it is because he knows that the group doesn't really endorse the ideas he implies.

These aren't subjects in which differences can be excused by referring, as he does, to "differing stages of growth." These are subjects that no one can start without. They aren't optional. They are beginning common ground. Deviations on these subjects must surely be considered serious error. Furthermore, "inability to articulate beliefs," which he refers to, is no excuse on these basic items. In a truly orthodox group, the very simplest believer has no trouble in grasping that these things are FUNDAMENTAL to his faith, and he can freely make thankful and reasonably clear reference to them.

If the majority of workers REALLY believed and taught what he says they do, he wouldn't need to go about interviewing them to find it out.

And IF the workers have been teaching these things, why have the members not been absorbing them?

We suggest: CHECK OUT the views of the members. See what they have learned regarding the items he mentions: (Without putting words in their mouths.)

With the exception of a few individuals raised outside the group, members do not carry these views at all.

And if this worker rejoices in his belief and has confidence that the group in general shares his belief, why does he remain anonymous? Why will he not give his remarks the dignity of his signature? This is unheard of in the real world around us where people are free to state their case and hold an opinion! We all know why he doesn't. We've been there. It's mind control.

And the freedom he says he feels in walking into a Christian bookstore simply demonstrates that an older worker has a lot more freedom than the members. But why would he want to go into a Christian bookstore, when he is against Christian books? And why does he want to be thought orthodox, when he believes orthodoxy is false? Why does he try to look like something he isn't? This smacks of counterfeiting before the public.

So we conclude that this anonymous worker's letter, though well written and expressed with admirable restraint and good will under the circumstances (which serves his purpose, of course), CANNOT be accepted at face value. It is not what it tries to sound like at all. Let the reader beware.

How can we possibly take the anonymous worker's letter seriously!

We well know that neither the language he uses nor the beliefs he implies characterize the group. Actually, within the group

And can he really be reporting, as he says, the views of most of the workers when he refers to these items? We found the worker's views on these subjects were often "temporarily adjustable" according to the occasion and NEVER did they independently support them. So this older worker could easily have put "words" in the mouths of other workers, especially since he is no doubt using the terms in a way more acceptable to them than the usual orthodox meaning of the terms.

Besides, all these phrases (grace, faith, justified) are WORTHLESS unless clearly defined and the definition consistently applied. The worker can only be comfortable using the phrases he does, because he doesn't mean them in the orthodox sense.

So, what GRACE and FAITH is he referring to when he says, "I believe and teach salvation by grace through faith alone?"

He could mean:

But could he mean? (as Christian orthodoxy has declared FROM THE SCRIPTURES for centuries):

• God's GRACE sent Christ to live out righteousness in my stead and to die for my sin, both of which were required of me according to the justice of God's law.

• I receive this righteousness of Christ, which gives me title to eternal life, solely because my FAITH has embraced it, and I rest on nothing else. Therefore, God accepts me.

We'd love to think so. But we all know that this is NOT what is believed and taught, much less trusted, in the group. This saving Christian message is not there. Doctrinally the group is a cult. We say this with sadness and with much concern for those who are yet in the group.

- RUTH MILLER

If anyone would like to contact the Millers, their address is:

Booksellers, U.S.A. P.O. Box 1612, Richland, Washington, 99352 USA

November 1, 1996

Anon Worker:

I have read the responses to you from my friends on the list and I would be a fool to think I had much to add. So I won't add much, just a little. I like Joan would like to see you clarify some of your doctrinally oriented comments.

Now for a couple of real life experiences which nag at me as I read your version of what the 2x2's hold as true. I will try and be both complete and brief.

Incredibly difficult circumstances arose within my family when Mt. Peak convention was announced. If you choose to come visit I would be glad to share the particulars with you. But suffice it so say that I was launched into one of the most intense heartfelt searches for the truth in my life. That search led to reading materials I am sure you are familiar with. Particularly the book Has TheTruth Set You Free. Carla and I went to Alaska in the summer of 91. On the way home to Dallas we stopped in Seattle and we had dinner with Gene and Grace Luxon. That visit changed our lives. It was during that visit where Gene leaned across the dinner table and eye to eye with all of the concern a friend could generate for another friend said "Dale, they don't believe Jesus is God." Because my background was not being raised in the 2x2 group I thought every Christian group believed in the Trinity. I was stunned. I left Seattle with one mission in mind. Find the highest ranked worker I could find and settle the question. And that is what I did.

In my last posting I talked some about leadership. Spiritual leadership. ANON Worker, the church must have leadership in agreement concerning those basic foundational Christian doctrines which define the faith. Doctrines as basic as who God is. Leadership like that written about by Paul when he instructs Timothy to teach the sound doctrine of the apostles. Sound doctrine as held and taught by church pastors and elders. Not doctrine where we have to say as you did that you cannot speak for anyone but yourself or that the understanding of these essentials of the Christian faith comes from a growing experience. So I went searching for a leader. An overseer. A man I really liked and thought could give me authoritative answers. I found him. The overseer of the state of Texas. William Lewis.

I invited William over to the house.. I am not at all sure that William would relate the following to you as I am going to state it. But I took notes and the sheer gravity of the meeting motivated in me a real need to pay attention as you can well imagine. To lay the groundwork I asked William if he could speak with authority concerning the beliefs of the fellowship. He said yes that there was a group of about 5-8 older workers who were considered the leaders of the leaders you might say. I don't remember the exact title he gave to this group. My goal was not to understand the unspoken structure of the 2x2's leadership but to understand their beliefs concerning the the divinity of Christ. William mentioned a few names in the group and said they considered Taylor Wood the headworker. So I had gone as high up the ladder as I could.

I asked William if the fellowship believed or taught that Jesus was God. He said no. I asked him if he believed or taught that Jesus was equal to God the Father. (I wanted to ask the question in as many different ways as I could) He said no. I asked him if he believed in the Trinity or concept of the Triune God. He said that he did not. He then mentioned something about why John Starkweather was asked to leave the work. And then he said something that sent a chill into my bones.

I asked William to refer me to some verses that helped him shape his view of who Jesus was. In the past William had told me that Jesus was a "glandular man." I never quite understood what he was trying to say. He went into that description of Jesus again. Then the chill part. He took me to Hebrews chapter 5 where it is written that Jesus prayed to His Father who could save Him from death. William then told me that Jesus was praying to the Father in hopes of not losing His salvation!!! I couldn't believe my ears. I was all at the same time disgusted and relieved. Disgusted that anyone could lower my Saviour/God to that level and relieved that I had settled the issue I had set to resolve. William went on toshow me verses that he said proved that Jesus could have failed in His mission to die on the cross and save us!! I offered some thoughts concerning the verses he used, but predictably without much interest on his part. William left because he was late for lunch. Though I have invited him to come again to visit, he has declined the offer.

Two more quickies. I cannot use his name because I assured him I wouldn't, but a worker I had known for 13 years called and come by. I asked him if he believed Jesus was God. He said something like "sure I do because the bible says it." But he went on to say he hadn't decided whether Jesus was eternal. ANON Worker, it is very important the right questions be asked on the divinity of Christ. One good one to really decide what is truly believed is this. Do you believe Jesus to be equal in essence and nature to God the Father. Is it OK to call Him God the Son?

June Douglas told us at our table that Jesus was not God and referred us to the verses where Paul states God the Father has authority over the Son. She said the bible never says "God the Son."

I have a workers list for Texas and New Mexico. Some years ago I wrote to all on the list. My heart was convicted that something needed to be said about the irresponsibility to teach the truth about Christ. James says teachers will be held accountable for what they teach. I shared with them my concerns regarding their teaching concerning the divinity of Christ. I got one response from a worker in South America who had to write an older worker to ask his opinion. But I didn'tget one letter back saying that I misunderstood and that workers DO believe in Christ being God as you present as a widely held belief.

ANON Worker, I have been long so I will close with my address and phone number.I suspect you know where I live, but here it is anyway.

One last quick thought. One cannot both be saved by the completed work of Christ and a pattern to be followed.

In Love,

Dale Knott

--- --- ----

------ ------ ------- --------

Midlothian, Texas, USA

November 5, 1996

The following message was submitted by and forwarded from Fred and Ruth Miller:

Dear Friends,

Fred and I have enjoyed reading your responses to the anonymous worker letters which Joan has passed on to us. It's great to see so many voices speaking up for our Savior as God the Son and for salvation by grace through faith alone!

We have looked more closely at the anonymous worker letter #2 and see that as regards salvation it is similar to some of the many evasive sessions we had with the workers years ago, as we were trying to be sure what they believed and trying to determine whether we could inconscience remain in the group.

Though strange to the ears of the members, this letter is not a new song. It is something the workers resort to when they need to defend themselves against orthodoxy. Jack Carroll fooled the Plymouth Brethren Loizeaux Press brilliantly with it for a short while in the twenties. And we gained experience with it as we were getting out in the seventies. We think it is important to see what is, and what isn't, being said.

When we pressed the workers toward a discussion of what saves us, they would speak of SOME salvation subjects, but not OTHER salvation subjects. A pattern emerged which is also in this present letter. They would speak freely enough of the part of salvation which happens IN us, but not that which happened OUTSIDE of us.

That is, they would speak of:

Christ IN us, but not Christ FOR us.

Christ indwelling us by the Holy Spirit, but not Christ living and dying as our righteous Substitute.

Being born again by the Spirit, but not Receiving the gift of righteousness.

Regeneration, but not Justification.

Our SUBJECTIVE experience of salvation, but not Christ's OBJECTIVE provision of it 2000 years ago in His life & death.

Our faith and OUR works, but not CHRIST'S historical work which we receive by faith alone.

Our response to the Gospel, but not the Gospel itself.

Our acceptance of salvation, but not the BASIS of salvation.

It was clear that they mistook the Spirit's work in us to be the basis of salvation. Christ living and dying in our stead was not a focus for them. This was always so; it never varied. And it is true in this letter as well. The anon. worker refers to our faith and to the work of salvation in us, but he makes no effort to spell out the saving work of Christ outside of us. He speaks of the "work of Christ," but doesn't say what it is; he does way, "He is the means of expiating sin," but doesn't say how.

It is not surprising, of course, that the workers wanted to avoid what happened outside of us, because that is what provided salvation. It is the work of Christ, our Savior, living and dying for us, and is the only proper object of saving faith. The SUBJECTIVE line of truth, WHICH THEY PREFERRED TO DISCUSS, does not actually provide salvation. It is the work of the Holy Spirit, not of our Savior. The Holy Spirit, important as He is, did not become flesh and live and die for us. So His work is not the gospel, but simply the inevitable RESULT of our trusting the gospel, Christ's doing and dying. The Holy Spirit transmits to us the effects of Christ's work for us.

But this work of the Spirit, because it is subjective, within us, is something which can be counterfeited before men. The cults have a hey day here, and so do the workers. Their counterfeit can take any twist they want it to have, and it can carry a lot of legalism and subtle self-promotion.

But NOT SO the primary subject, the objective work of Christ. There is only one Savior and His historical saving work of living and dying in our place is not repeatable. It can't be counterfeited. So they want to leave it out.

In the Protestant Reformation, the battle was for clarification between these two lines of truth, and the same battle goes on today. On one side, the Reformers said we are saved by the work of Christ FOR us (outside of us) freely available to us by faith alone. And all else is built on this foundation.

On the other side, Rome said we are saved by the work of Christ IN us, moving us to be and do.....thus and so.

So the cleverest, subtlest error can sound like truth, because it IS truth, standing in the wrong position, the cart before the horse. So it is a phony counterfeit, a bondage masquerading as salvation.

Talking about grace and faith (which this letter goes in for) is not much help, because grace just says "It's free," and faith just says "I believe it," but neither term spells out what IT is. These terms have no meaning standing alone, and therefore can't be used to draw the line between truth and error. So we have to spell out what JUSTIFIED is, i.e . standing before God and His law in a RIGHTEOUSNESS that can be accepted, a perfect righteousness, only available in our Substitute, Christ Himself.

It isn't saving faith to look inward and depend upon something going on in me, even if I say it's God's work. Saving faith always looks outward to Christ's work of 2,000 years ago and depends on that. And any thought of grace is useless if it is in violation of justice. Because grace comes from God, and He can never violate His justice. So again grace must consist of giving us One who can stand before justice in our place.

If an inner change of heart by the Spirit were sufficient to save, Christ need not have come. But He had to come, because the justice of God required His law to be obeyed by One who could do it perfectly in the flesh, and it required that its penalty be endured by One who could survive it. And survive with enough merit to spare that He could share it with us, infinite merit ONLY available in One who was both God and man.

So in the long run, we can't sort out salvation with 2x2s, if we speak only of subjective truth (what happens in us), which is all this letter does.

It would be wonderful, of course, if this worker personally meant by his terms what a real believer with a sound BASIS for faith means in using these terms. But we can't believe that he means his words in the orthodox sense. He makes no effort to spell out the work of Christ. And the workers' dodge with us, "Well, we can't say everything at once," is no excuse for leaving out the most basic item, and for resisting it when it is proffered.

So we've heard all this kind of thing before, and in the end the workers never accepted Christ as our saving Substitute, never agreed to the gift of righteousness, and never believed that the cleansing of His blood was ours without price for the trusting - nor would they ever trust Christ alone. At most, it was Christ plus "my best." And more often, "My best alone."

Besides, this worker says he's held his present views for a long time. We don't believe you can share orthodox salvation beliefs inside the 2x2s without the group objecting and eventually putting you out. Especially if you have strong credibility before the group, and there is any danger someone else might take you seriously.

And we believe that you WON'T stay in indefinitely when you truly rely on Christ's work FOR you as here described, no matter how strong your ties are, because eventually you can't tolerate hearing your Savior discredited in every meeting.

We want to make clear that we do not feel a lack of charity towad this worker personally. We pray for him, and would rejoice to see him trusting the gospel. But hope of a crack in the workers' stubborn blindness wears thin after years of attempts at courteous exchanges. It does happen though. Fred got out trusting the gospel, as have some others who have been in the work. But we cannot help someone defend the system.

By the way, the workers seemed to sense that the ministry and worship issues PALED before the bigger issue of justification, so they turned to the work of Christ in us as their focus. It looked as though they came to feel a bit silly trying to make a mere method of preaching and meeting into the salvation of a sinner. Even so, we all know that their method IS their message.

I apologize for the length of this letter, but I can't seem to say it shorter. Thanks for your forbearance.

Sincerely,

Ruth Miller