When you see a group who always thinks alike then I say most are not thinking.

While in the 2x2’s my belief was fixed and intolerant. My firmly held belief in the way was rooted in the mistaken belief that the truth was the same all over the world.

All believed the same one truth. Nothing else could be right, no need to take serious or even consider any other way. You couldn’t have two ways and they both be the right way. Our group was right, and anything else was wrong. This common belief and staying in the group kept us as safe as any mortal could hope to be in this life. 6/97

Of the several countries we have visited, we have found that it is only in the USA and Canada that grape juice is used instead of wine on Sunday mornings. Wine is commonly served with the meal in "professing" homes and IT IS NOT HIDDEN, as is common here. In Italy, the center piece(s) on the dinner table was an assortment of liqueurs which we were offered at the end of the meal. Then we were told, "We understand that in America, you are a bad person if you drink [wine - alcohol]."

A few years ago, we went by train from Waterloo Station, in London, to Ewell (a suburb) to a "Gospel" meeting. Norman Henderson was the head worker there. At that meeting we met two men from this side of the Atlantic. One was from Canada, and the other was known from childhood meeting days.

On the train going back to central London, there were 5 of us who had arranged two seats to face each other so we could visit. George Pepper, a very nice man, an elder, was the fifth person. The subject of "wine" versus "grape juice" for "emblems" was discussed. The Canadian said that wine shouldn’t be used because that might encourage someone in meeting who was an alcoholic to return to drink. Another pointed out that Jesus had changed water into wine - his very first miracle recorded. Another said, "Yeah! That is just an excuse to suck on the bottle!" George said, "I buy the very finest wine - because it represents the blood of our Savior. It wouldn’t do for us to argue about it." End of discussion. Isn’t the unity so wonderful! We have been told throughout our lifetimes that, "It is the same all over the world." We have found that this simply is not true. This subject (wine/grape juice) is only one of many points that illustrate the oft repeated un-truth of "unity." What IS the same is the avoidance of anything (even truth) if it looks as though the myth of "unity" is being uncovered. 6/97

PS: We have more recently wondered if George Walker’s Methodist back ground influenced this USA and Canada "rules." The WCTU (Women’s Christian Temperance Union) - we think was a Methodist group and was "death" on ANY alcohol. This is just a guess and we’ll appreciate correction or other illumination.

Yes we always had the real thing in New Zealand, wine for Sunday morning meeting (horrible stuff!!) and I know of at least two in the meetings who were alcoholics.

When I was growing up we never had alcohol at meals and wine was a no, no. Now when I go out for a meal with a group of the ‘friends’ they have wine (I don’t). They always order wine when a group of them go out for a meal, I don’t think they have it in their home. Some reckon that alcohol has always been allowed. I reckon that they have changed the rules to suit themselves. Wine is not used at weddings. 6/97

I have had the opportunity to do a lot of traveling across this great country of Canada. I notice that as one travels westward the "standards of truth" are more relaxed. That is, things are more accepted in the west - Xmas trees, radios, VCRs and Camcorders, hair that’s shorter and permed in women, stereo systems in homes, recreational activities of the young people". 6/97

There sure seems to be a lot of differences even in the house meetings. Lots of changes have taken place over the years too. Sitting/standing to give a testimony. Kneeling/sitting to pray. Visiting/not visiting after meeting. Differences in what was allowed to be worn to a meeting for both men and women. Saying an "Amen" after a testimony/not saying that "Amen." 6/97

Here in Australia, it is usual for everyone to say "amen" after the end of every testimony and prayer, but the tone and volume of the "amen" speaks volumes! You would only say a definite amen if you really liked or believed what the speaker said. If there is very little response or only very quiet amens, the speaker might get vibes of not being pleasing to the others in the meeting.

I remember there being a lot of discussion some years ago about saying amen. Some people were concerned about the meaning of this word, and also whether it was appropriate to say amen when other "false" churches do this! (Always wanting to be different of course). Anyway, today it is very common in all the meetings I attended in Australia.

Re kneeling to pray - depends on area in Australia. Some areas stand to pray and stand to speak; some stand to pray and sit to speak; some kneel to pray and stand/sit to speak. 6/97

The practice of getting down on your knees to pray was common practice in Eastern Canada up until the mid-1980’s. Like other places, it was abandoned to accommodate the older folks. I remember as a kid thinking that this was great because you could have a little nap and nobody would notice! Sometimes the position was too comfortable though, as many times my great grandpa would start to snore.

I find it ironic that the workers were willing to make an "executive decision" in this regard to accommodate the elderly, because it was the most practical thing to do for the times. It’s unfortunate that this same rationale is not applied to some of the unnecessary traditions that the group still hangs on to.

You likely know that East and West professing people in Canada haven’t traditionally mixed all that much. (I believe this to be the case in the USA as well.) Sure, there is some back and forth-"ness" from East to West but in my opinion the East professing people hang together and the West professing people hang together. [Or is that "worship together?" <grin> ] This, again In my opinion, seems true of the workers too. As an example, I recall many speakers who came to Western Canada from Western USA but I can’t recall any coming from Eastern Canada never mind Eastern USA.

But why?

Well, my theory has to do with Jack Carroll and George Walker who decided they would split North America (USA & Canada that is) right up the middle. They "ruled" their territories, for the most part, alone.

It seems to me that even though these tyrants are long gone the workers today find themselves in that same territorial position. Seems I recall reading a letter perhaps written by Willis Propp to the effect that Western Canada and Eastern Canada should try to be more united in the Way. [RIS/TTT—do you recall a letter like this?]

As one reference to support my thoughts refer to Page 118 of THE LIFE AND MINISTRY OF EDWARD COONEY by Patricia Roberts:

"After Irvine’s fall in 1914, his heirs set themselves up as overseers in their respective ‘fields.’ George Walker claimed the oversight in the eastern part of the United States and Jack Carroll in the western part."

It just seems to me that instead of one "King" (as Irvine had originally been) we ended up with two "Kings!" 6/97

From my hearsay knowledge while in the work, and growing up with family in the east and mid-west, and living in the west, it is my opinion you are right on target when you "suggest" that the east-west division was as a result of the Walker/Carroll split. From what I knew, at one time Geo. Walker contemplated excommunicating J. Carroll., but apparently lacked the "political" clout to do so.

J. Carroll would NOT submit to Geo. Walker. Nichol Jardine the mid-west tyrant, reportedly sadistic and mean spirited by many who knew him, did submit to Walker, and thus enjoyed his power base until he died. Nichol’s brother Jim was kind hearted, and somehow "balanced" Nichol’s totalitarian rule, though Jim spent many years abroad.

The workers were heavy into "diversities of administration", but not into rocking the boat when death, medical discharge, "senility", (my euphemism for old-age) disorderly conduct"—humorous smiles! or "dishonorable discharge" forced the replacement of a "top kick".

("Top Kick" is a common U.S. Army term usually referring to the Top Sergeant of an outfit, but seems applicable in the 2x2 hierarchy where it isn’t quite so complimentary!)

"Diversities of administration" was the 2x2 catch all for anything that was different from place to place. This allowed them to teach it was the same all over the world, for such things as Wine use, Racism, Standing, kneeling, sitting, etc. etc. could be lumped into "customs" and thus be ignored when describing the "same spirit". 6/97

Here is the letter from Willis Propp to which I believe ____ referred. It’s interesting in it’s own right. It seems Mr. Propp was evidently concerned to bring about a united position on the divorce/remarriage issue at this time (didn’t seem to get anywhere, though).

January 22, 1986 [date is fuzzy on my copy]

To whom it may concern:

In the prayer of Jesus that last night of His life, He placed before us not alone a golden ideal, but a twofold responsibility—unity of the New Testament ministry, and unity of the New Testament fellowship. (JOHN 17:11 & 20-21.)

For many years there has existed a difference and lack of this unity, particularly in the ministry, between Eastern and Western Canada and the United States. The coming and going of workers at Conventions and Special Meetings has been a great help in feeding and caring for God’s People, yet it has not been at all effective in erasing this difference.

To the contrary, there has been a growing awareness of two very distinct lines of thought emerging with regard to some of the fundamental teachings of Christ and His early apostles. Workers, young and old, both in the East and West, are becoming more and more alarmed as to where this may lead us. Our friends in the more recent years, due to the increase in travel, etc., are beginning to question us: "Are there two Standards in this Kingdom?" Our young workers are now being confronted with this and are at a loss to know how to answer this vital question.

Absolute unity in the fundamental teachings of Christ which promotes this unity of the faith and unity of the body of Christ is so necessary. Grave danger looms that two camps polarized from one another will result. We all know that united we stand and divided we fall. The enemy of our souls would like nothing better than to see such a tragedy happen.

A gathering such as was held in Acts 15 where unity was so threatened, and where the Holy Spirit guided and promoted unifying results is urgently needed. We earnestly request such a gathering at this time where a restoration to harmony can be realized, so the preservation of a united Kingdom can be maintained. There are some of us nearing the end of our journey in life. We take this opportunity to plead for a positive and godly approach to this matter, lest we leave such a distressing issue upon the shoulders of younger men who will be taking up the torch of the testimony when we must lay it down.

Willis Propp [typed signature]

When I was in England four years ago, we went to a gospel meeting. It was all the same before and during the meeting, then after the meeting it was where one would notice the change. No one talked after the meeting, not even in the yard, and if you did, it was as few words as possible, and in whispers. When leaving the mission tent, the workers stand at the door, the same as in North America, and whisper, "Good night." In England, until about five years ago or so, men and women sat on different sides of the tent, and different sides of the dining tent at convention. This was like this in the Eastern N.A. continent for a while in the early years as well. In England it is respectful for a woman to wear a hat at convention. A young girl I knew went to convention with a hat on, and was admired by the workers for her respect. In contrast, my cousin at an Eastern N.A. convention, was asked by the workers to remove her hat.

Differences in East and West of the N.A. continent; convention meetings and meals are held in tents in the east, and sheds in the west. Until the new hymn book came out in 1987, the west used leaflets, the east didn’t. The west has an annual list of the weekly Bible studies, the east chooses their study from church to church by reading a book at a time, chapter to chapter. The west has people stand up to give their testimony, the east remains seated, except at a union meeting. The west, the meeting isn’t over and books are not put away until the elder returns from disposing of the emblems, in the east the emblems are often left in the room while people are socializing after the meeting. In the east there is no Wednesday evening meeting at convention, unlike the west. In the east at Special Meeting, you take a small brown bag lunch, and eat at your seat, while in the west, people take a picnic basket, large cooler, with a wide variety of food, and eat in a cafeteria room.

Until about twenty years ago, the eastern side of the continent would kneel to pray in Sunday and Wednesday meetings. I remember sometimes writing notes with saliva to my brother on my hymn book. Often times I would fall asleep, as I was only five years old at the time.

These are just a few things I could come up with trying to brainstorm. 6/97

The differences are vast from South Africa to here in Canada.

We only had wine at communion. We had to discard the leftovers outside on a bit of ground where no one walked.

Communion is served at convention. There could be 20 cups and 20 pieces of bread. Because of the racial segregation, which was only removed because of fear now of black government in power, a worker, ran frantically down the centre of the isle to ensure the fact that the cup did not pass over the racial barriers. Our parents told us that God would make it right one day. This was a sign that it was the right way, because the devil doesn’t bother false churches; after all he already had them. 6/97

One convention when I was young I was delighted to have my Bible signed by Nathan McCarthy who is now the head worker here in New Zealand. It was very rare to see a worker walking around between meetings at convention. He wrote Rev 2:10. ".. be thou faithful unto death and I will give thee a crown of life." I always cherished those words but now it means to me to be faithful to Jesus and not the workers.

In N.Z here we were told to not talk after the meetings so that we would not "lose the spirit."

Hats were worn by women to the meetings until a worker from U.S.A. was visiting and preached without a hat on. After that we stopped wearing hats to missions. We continued to wear hats to fellowship meetings for years after.

In N.Z. we also were given a list at the beginning of each year for Wednesday evening bible study that took place for 6 weeks before convention while the workers were away preparing for convention.

We knelt to pray in Sunday morning meeting but stood to pray in Wednesday evening bible study. 6/97