The friends do not talk about God because when they do, the truth comes out that most don't have a clue what they believe and definitely not why they believe. It was this very talking, that opened my eyes to the truth.....As you can tell, I have a rather bold personality and if something looks wrong, I investigate to find out what IS wrong. I asked questions of everyone, every time I was with them socially. I learned that everyone feels differently about almost everything the workers teach. Some who just know that meetings are what matters, and slipping off the narrow pathway is dangerous. The narrow pathway to them is GOING TO MEETINGS..... Jan 14, 2000 Diane Chilton

I defended the group for years before God finally opened my eyes. I pity those who see and know things are "wrong" but, for friendship, family, and evenplace continue to rationalize those wrongs.

He seems upset that we are rather critical of the "truth", ignoring the fact that the group of which he is a member, is highly critical of ALL other churches. The early workers were not called "The Damnation Army" without reason.

It's hard to know what we can do to help people like (a 2x2 who Emailed VOT) who are familiar with the bible yet interpret it in such a twisted fashion.

I found the friends to be very nice people for the most part. Mind you, to "outsiders" they could be very cold, aloof and down-right ugly especially if those outsiders didn't know anything about them and their system.

On the flip side of that; if they believe the "outsider" is a potential convert to their Way they can be as sweet as pie! 1/97

One of the things that impressed me about the friends long before I professed was this calm, serene, quiet, seemingly humble, hospitable nature of the friends. What I experienced to begin with definitely could be described mostly by those words: "calm and serene." Something I lacked and still do! Something I never "developed" all those years I was "in."

I now have a very good phrase for this "calmness, serenity, and humbleness." It is called "I AM SOOO PROUD OF HOW HUMBLE I AM!!!!!!!" In other words, pride in one's humility is NO humility at all!!!

Let's apply it to other "traits" of the 2x2's:

"I AM SOOOO PROUD OF HOW DIFFERENT I AM FROM THOSE IN THE WORLD!!"

"I AM SOOOO PROUD OF HOW RIGHT MY CHURCH IS AND HOW WRONG YOURS IS!!"

It is this HAUGHTINESS that makes the 2x2's so repulsive to me. It is this attitude, which is so FAKE, that makes it so difficult for me to speak the truth in love!! Whenever problems arose, they would be swept under the carpet at ALL costs in order to maintain this appearance of serenity, humility, and calmness.

I am SO glad I am OUT.

Sorry if I sounded harsh...it is the way I feel

These seemed the most "loving" group of folks we had ever encountered and I have always thought of this day as THE DAY when I was "won over," yet there was NOTHING said about Jesus, their teachings or doctrine. We felt that we had met a bunch of folks who really did want to be our friends. Although their worship seemed very simple, even somewhat primitive, we immediately accepted them as true born again believers and thought they accepted us the same way. The differences we observed even seemed refreshing. We assumed by what we did understand of the messages we heard preached, and our understanding of the conversations between us, that the workers and friends knew the same Father, Son and holy Spirit we had known most all of our lives.

As a child it was always best to be "seen but not heard" when visiting saints or workers were present. "Being seen and not heard" was one of the major rules of growing up. I believe this is one of the reasons I am so unassertive and accept many things as "that’s just the way it is."

Really, a person can't "put on an act" year after year without cracking a bit! God gave us our personalities and it just isn't natural to try to be someone other than who He made us to be!!

>>I also feel that I had to squash my personality to fit in. Actually, in the end, that helped me to see what had happened to me. I finally realized that I was a totally different person when around more than two of the friends at one time. I had been squashing my God-given personality in order to "appear" the quiet, gentle, controlled professing woman. <<

Personally, I feel that I have repressed my personality out of shame and attempting to fit in to the extent that I'm kind of confused about who I am!! But I do know that I felt that the choleric tendencies have always gotten me in trouble (while professing, anyway) and until our pastor very recently pointed out the references to the "gift of leadership", I had certainly never considered it a gift!!!

Not long after I left I had a 2x2 literally run from me rather than continue our conversation past "Hello, how are you?" It was funnier than words can tell. It was like she would get a disease if she stayed and continued to speak to me! But this is not a usual situation--just happened, that's all.

They have done an excellent job of cloning I would say! In the "Truth" those who follow the "standard" closest get the bigger brownie points which, at least in my area, would be referred to as "privileges."

Yes, there are many good people and good things in the fellowship.The best is the love that is shown. But again, this is a conditional love and only goes so far. 1/97

Another odd thing is the hymn "I Cannot Now Go Back". I did not understand this hymn (oh, is it really a hymn or just a song?). Did the writer have a desire, suffer some temptation to return to *the world*? Actually I have some temptation to return to *the way*, but now that song has more meaning with "my eyes have seen.." or however it goes. [Actually, not really temptation, but I dearly miss some of the friends.] 1/97

In talking with professing relatives:

>The thing that particularly stumped me is that they kept saying "well where are you going to go for fellowship then?" Where will you guide your children to go?" etc. etc . Talk about FRUSTRATING though. People are generally unhappy with a lot of things [in the fellowship] but still want to cling to their belief or what has become their world. I think often they are scared of having it come tumbling down.

Interesting to note that people are the same all over the world though!!?<

Yes. So true. And it's not just the fellowship that's the same, it's people in general and other churches too and other cultures. It's not at all like we once thought, but great to be finding out.

>Where to fellowship and what to teach the children?! <

Very good questions and impossible to answer if we keep the mind set that there are only 2 kinds of people, those INSIDE the fellowship and those OUTSIDE. So don't feel bad, only God can do the impossible. 2/97

It is important to me to remember that the Holy Spirit does the revealing through the Word of God. When a person is clinging to a system, a fellowship, or anything besides Jesus, they will be insecure. It is wonderful to have the freedom to enjoy the fellowship of believers, some who are inside and some outside of churches. Our fellowship is in Christ through His Word. 2/97

The friends believe that their lifestyle will positively attract the attention of anyone seeking God. Upon an interest expressed the interested party needs to go to the public [gospel] meetings. 2/97

What a difference it is to know that God still loves us when we are unloveable, still loves us when we do wrong. He doesn't only love us when our hairstyle is within the bounds of the 2x2s, when we are so filled with guilt & shame, when we are sitting in a meeting or convention, when we are praying or taking part in meeting but He loves us unconditionally. ________ wrote awhile ago about her brother who had been having spiritual struggles & went to convention. I believe she said his hair was longer than acceptable with the group & he hadn't been attending meeting. He was largely ignored at convention by friends & workers. If ever someone needed encouraging, needed love and kindness--wouldn't it be now? He came to convention to fill a need yet was rejected!! It makes me want to weep yet I remember when I went to meeting & was at conventions that you'd see someone who was similar to _______'s brother & "I" didn't reach out either. We just weren't taught that that was important & needful--yet human compassion "should" have told me differently. I've found since leaving the group & much of that judgmental attitude behind that when I've been able to look beyond the outward appearances, I've found some beautiful souls!! 2/97

Well, I haven't come to any new conclusion on those who remain. I do wish they would either leave the fellowship or speak out and listen with concern about the wrong in the church while they remain in the church. But the choice is theirs. 3/97

<< I am wondering how anyone can be so harsh and extreme that they can write, "I absolutely see NO positive in this group called the 2x2's. >>

Any good thing that results from the 2x2s is only good for the here and now. I do not disagree that there are not some good people doing some good things as a result of involvement in the 2x2s, but it is merely temporal good. There are lots of groups that do temporal good.

I do not see any ETERNAL good in the 2x2s. The "gospel" (GOOD NEWS) that I heard was the good news that if I did a bunch of stuff, THEN I would one day have the hope of maybe getting into heaven.

Such good news from such good people?

It is such a shame to here people focus on the workers and how they brought "the gospel" at a certain place and time. Nothing about Jesus. When will these poor people learn that they are not living to please man? How much more satisfying their lives would be!! 4/97

I do remember some concern about 'causing a brother to stumble' but the fact that throughout all of my school years I was the only professing kid in my school - from a kid's perspective that was not as much of a worry--(I guess that means we were more concerned with appearances to the friends than with being an example to the world.) That has probably saved me a lot of pain. I had less of a problem shedding the legalisms and living my life guilt free. 6/97

A lack of understanding seems to have gotten some of us in the nameless church. We just accepted what was dished out - like a mother bird feeding her little ones. 6/97

Many of the older folks have put their heart and soul into the WAY. They have believed it is the truth and without it they have no hope.

I've considered their position once they begin to learn that some in the fellowship are leaving and are no longer believing in the WAY. They must feel devastated; even betrayed and very deeply hurt. They likely feel great concern for their loved one's salvation.

How must they feel once they learn about William Irvine and the cover-up that took place when Irvine was put out? How must they feel when they begin to see that a SYSTEM cannot save them? How must they feel when faced with having to take a deeper look at "these things?" What happens to their pride/self-righteousness? How do they cope? Is it more difficult for them to say "it looks as though we have been duped" than it is for their children to say the same thing? How must they feel having told their children and grandchildren about the perfect WAY?

I feel for these folks. They must be looking back at their 40, 50, 60 or more years in the "Truth" and wonder who they are now and what this new information means to them and what they will do about it. Will their pride/self-righteousness or their honesty win out?

And then I wonder, not only about the older folks, but about all professing people if they are being HONEST. Honest with themselves. Do they REALLY, deep down in their hearts, actually BELIEVE that God has only ONE system of worship in ONE exclusive group? Do they believe GOD ALMIGHTY can be THAT small? And do they not understand that Christ died for our sins and that He did not come to earth to establish a way. He *IS* the WAY! 6/97

When I was professing, I was proud to be humble. Isn't this the ultimate paradox? 6/97

I also used to have Jack Price on a pedestal like most "friends" do even yet. It's a dangerous thing when so many people worship the worker more than Jesus. Know this, as I've "been there, done that"! 2/97

It took me a few years to realize that a lot of socialization didn’t go on unless you were part of the "in" crowd or from a big professing family. The early attention that I received was because I was an "outsider" and still a "babe" in the Way!!

Perhaps the reason I feel so compassionate to the spiritually blind people in the 2x2's is because I also once persecuted the true believer's in Christ. I said that these exes were looking for a easy way out. 7/97

I absolutely agree with you ____. The friends ARE wonderful people--most of them--many of them. I personally found them to be very hospitable and this, in fact, was the main thing that influenced me the VERY most when I first started attending their gospel meetings. I found them to be the most friendly, warm people I had ever met.

I know that the friends think we are all bitter and evil and that we are "out to lunch" but we DO care about them and we want them to have enough information so that they can be informed. If they choose to remain in the group that is up to them. We know that this is very hard on the older folks and no one wants to have their boat rocked but do they not deserve to know the truth?

I had tried to talk to some of the friends, but they just thought I was
trying to find excuses to cut my hair and wear jeans and shorts.  We could
never really DISCUSS anything.  9/97 

An "outsider" recently wrote and asked this question:

 "Is it taught that you have to be so nice to everyone and sweet and 
demure that it is almost sickening?  When a two by two is being this way 
to someone outside the faith what is going on in their mind-do they 
believe, for instance, that I am a bad person?"

Most on this list are, or once were, in the church without a name.

So, I have two questions for y'all:

1.)  What was your IMMEDIATE reaction when you read the above question?

2.)  How would YOU answer this person?

1) My immediate reaction to the outsiders comment was to shiver as
I remembered being the "victim" of this sweetness.
        2)  My answer to this person would be a "Yes, they do think you are
a bad person. If you are not 'one of them', that is a given."  Their purpose
is not to make you think this, I don't believe.  Their purpose is to
entice you or attract you to joining their group.  (On someone who is
good at reading body language and the real meaning behind people's words...
it doesn't work too well!)    9/97

I don't think outsiders are thought of as "bad", just ignorant and sadly   
lost.  There is also a measure of superiority over outsiders.  BAD   
measurements are used for those who used to be insiders:

bad - a person who once used to profess, but now exhibits signs of   
"worldliness".
very bad - a former professee who now attends another church.
evil, wicked - a former professee attending another church who is active   
in opposing the 2x2 beliefs
antichrist - all of the above, plus actively confronts and challenges   
current members on their beliefs.

About the sweet and sickening, I'm not so sure about this.  I guess   
outsiders might find this when attending gospel meetings, but I can't   
speak from experience.  The only place I used to find really   
overpoweringly sweet and sickening was convention.  Everyone was on   
absolute best behaviour for 3-4 days, and did not exhibit normal human   
behaviours at all.  Perhaps it was the watchful eye of all those workers,   
and the desire to be seen as one of the most hearty saints.  I used to   
wonder what would happen if convention were to extend into weeks or   
months.  I'm sure all the facades would have dropped very quickly. 9/97 

I think maybe people like that are what are called the pillars.  They
probably have a sincere desire to see that person one day profess, and
probably feel a great pity for them.  In my experience, most professing
people pretty much ignore outsiders because of their (the outsider's) general
sinful state and the possibility that their uncleanliness might be
contagious.  It seems to me that too many professing people despise all
outsiders or at the very best, pity them.  They in no way are seen as equals.

As for what is taught, we are taught to keep separate.  But Jesus taught us
to love.  I sure would like to see more love.  Genuine, brotherly love.  We
aren't taught social skills at all, and many of us are socially handicapped,
having never participated in any worldly activities where other children
learn how to interact with their fellows. 9/97  

I remember one worker in particular who I had seen
greet people at Gospel Meetings, acting very nice and very friendly, then
coming to our house after and screwing up her face when talking about these
same people who she "was so glad to see" only an hour or so before.  She
talked about people who were  hopeless, and those that were sickening to
visit with.  This was the example that was set for us.  Be nice to their
face, but say whatever you want about them behind their backs.  They're
sinners anyway!  Don't get me wrong, not all were like this, but this came to
mind when I saw the question.  9/97 

We gotta partially disagree with _____this time...though we can accept some DO think "outsiders are bad". We don't think it is necessarily that all those of the 2x2 group think "outsiders" are "bad".... Some, like XXX, are not even exclusive in their thoughts toward "outsiders". We think 2x2ers usually only really believe "outsiders" are "bad" if they are "ex-es" who have done ANYTHING to speak against 2x2 beliefs. 9/97

We needed some definition of the meaning of "bad".  I
also liked _______ variations on the word "bad".  I agree!

When I was thinking of "bad" it was synonymous with "sinful".  I'm sure
you'd all agree that 2x2's think of anyone outside their group as sinful.
Then I got to thinking...they even think of THEMSELVES as bad, using that
definition. (I remember "beating myself up" if I watched a TV program,
looked at a worldly magazine, read a "good" book, thought of myself before
someone else, didn't invite someone to meeting when I had the opportunity,
etc., etc., etc.)

So; maybe the happy, sweet front is covering more than their feelings
towards the OUTSIDER.  I remember clearly being told to put on a smile and
act like everything is wonderful, no matter WHAT.  I was told that was what
Paul did.  Those who knew me always commented on how happy I looked--I was
glad they couldn't see inside or know how much time I spent crying.

NOW, I am really happy and free and I am so glad to be alive and able to
talk about my beliefs without shame or fear.  And, I can't remember the
last time I cried because I was sorry for myself!

                        As always, your sister _____  9/97 

I know what you mean by the "sugar coated tongue" displayed to "outsiders". I could never get into the spirit of that, but knew many women who were adept at presenting that type of appearance. I think they probably pitied anyone not in the group. I would just be kind to anyone I met who was not of the group. It seemed to work all right. 9/97

When I was an "outsider" I too felt this "so VERY nice" almost sickening approach to me. It may be that those of you "raised-in-its" don't fully appreciate how this comes across to "outsiders." (AND, it could be, that this approach is not the NORM in all areas of the world.) And yes, it did seem to come from the "upper crust" in the group. The "superior saints;" now that I look back.

I knew some "superior saints" for about nine years before I professed. No doubt they wanted *me* "in" too. My mother was a new convert of theirs in those years and so I was a likely candidate (target?).

What is that "so VERY nice" stuff? I have words for it now. LOVE BOMBING! Pure and simple.

Before I attended Gospel Meetings I found the friends' attitude towards me was EXTRA SWEET but also an attitude of "I'M GODLY/RELIGIOUS and YOU are NOT." Later, as I attended Gospel Meeting and got to know more of them I found them friendly, congenial and most hospitable but not nearly as sickening sweet. 9/97

I thought of outsiders as people who were in a different category; like
we think of people who are from a different culture; people who "don't
know any better."  Since the outsiders didn't even know the standards I
followed, I didn't think it was fair to judge them by those standards.

Children who have been taught appropriate and inappropriate "meeting
behavior" by their parents will sometimes condemn another child for
doing/not doing as they have been taught.  It's hard for a child to
understand that the other child is NOT misbehaving; for their parent has
not given them the same standard for meeting behavior--so they are not
breaking any rules or being disobedient.

Likewise, that's how I viewed outsiders.  They didn't know the
standard--so they weren't breaking the rules.  Wasn't that what the Old
Law did?  It created a standard which made the people accountable. The
people then KNEW they were breaking the rules (sinning), and realized
they were not perfect.

Most 2x2s of my acquaintance held out pity and hope for outsiders.  They
also prayed VERY earnestly for them to see the light.

Beats me how a just and fair person could judge an outsider who never
heard "the Truth" to be evil or wicked--just because they were not one
of the insiders.  I would wonder about that person's (the judge) level
of self-esteem.  Why do they put someone else down?  To elevate
themselves?  9/97 

I agree with the person who felt that people in the 2x2's come across as
sickening sweet. This is only the case when there is an opportunity of a
potential victim. Those outsiders who don't look like there is hope for
them, either that they claim to already having found Jesus, or those who make
it quite clear that they won't have any part of it can get a cold shoulder.
This is again the visible part of the deception.  9/97 Sheila Martin

I think that the saccharine sweetness, when directed at an "outsider" is a
way of having that person on.  It's a way to make someone feel comfortable,
at ease, maybe    relaxed enough to feel they are among friends.  Then all
the TRUE "friends" can have  a cackle about it later, at the expense of
someone whose feelings don't really matter anyway. Instant superiority ! It's
also a badge of goodness among the believers.  There is so much
one-up-manship and emphasis on externals, despite protests to the contrary.
 Why else would the higher-ups take on the tasks of monitoring
dress/hairstyles etc. ?  By being sweeter than the next guy, you get more
approval from the most important people - the preachers.

Just my 'umble opinion  !  9/97 

Not only are they sickenly sweet, what's even worse is phony! Sorry, folks, but this is the point in time where I get to vent :/ The one thing that has really bothered me about the 2X2's since I left is that when I run into one of the 'friends' what's even worse than being shunned, is being pumped for information. Oh how many times this has happened!! There is even a couple of people where if I see them coming down the street, I cross it trying to avoid them - guess I'm shunning them, huh?

Really bothers me when I know that someone is looking for information on my family so they can pass it on down to whomever else they talk to. Any one else ever found that somehow everyone within the 2X2's knows what you're doing with your life even after you have left the faith? Used to drive me nuts to run into someone and they would say "yeah, and I heard that you're doing this... and you're doing that . . blah blah blah ..." Argh!

Even worse (and this must be the day for me to complain!) . . . someone who was trying to be oh so sweet to me on one day, said to me "I see you're taking up getting fat!" Arggh! Didn't understand someone who was supposed to be living the Christian life could be so rude and insensitive. 9/97

I can surely understand when folks get upset who are apart of the fellowship when they hear something they just do not want to believe. 9/97

He quickly learned how to run to workers to get his side of a story told first, and it has served him VERY well as it has all the rest who practiced such through the years. 9/97

I know when I professed I had little love to give. I was so busy trying to do what was "right" and keep up the proper appearances and go to all the meetings and conventions I had little left. 10/97

I printed some information off of the websites and passed it onto
members of my family and it was not taken well at all. I get on well
enough with all of my professing family members but when it comes to
discussing the problems with the 2x2 system forget it, they don't want
to talk about it. Fair enough I've done my bit now I have just stood
back and let them think it over, they know where I stand anyway.  10/97 

One time a long time family friend (professing) said something to me about 'knowing' the way, etc. And she quoted scripture Jesus said "I am the way, the truth...etc." I responded "Yes, Jesus said He was the way, not that the"truth" is the way." She hasn't brought the subject up again. 10/97

One of the things I've done since leaving the 2x2's which Idefinitely would not have done as a 2x2 has been perform as a stand-up comic. I found many two by two's to be distinctively lacking in humor unless it was mean and directed at other churches though. 10/97

It would be interesting to know the percentage of 2x2 membership that are not connected by family to the 2x2 system. My guess is that well over half are 2nd generation plus and fewer than 10% are otherwise unattached via professing family members.

Clearly at the turn of the century there were a few roots of these family trees that started. From then on their descendants were all but predisposed to participate.

The family provides not just constant exposure to teachings, but out of love and respect for parents and family members, children will tend to profess, too. The system receives sort of a family seal of approval. The kids don't want to hurt the parents by not continuing in the footsteps of the parental faith. They have been indoctrinated. Moreover, their continuation testifies of love for their parents and their failure to continue testifies of rebellion.

But how could they know anything different? Especially in a system such as the 2x2 where exposure to other beliefs is discouraged and even labeled as worldly or of the devil. This is true not just for the 2x2 system but most beliefs.

So what is faith but the belief that something is true even if tangible evidence is lacking? Some set of experiences are extrapolated from to provide the basis of faith. Often this is familial.

Lesson to parents: are you so absolutely certain that you are correct in your beliefs that you are willing to impose these beliefs on your children? Will you facilitate/not discourage exposure to anything that differs with your beliefs? If your children choose a different path, will you still love them/respect them? 10/97

There are also some who ignore the founder problem altogether. They think, "Hey, this is a great way to do things, so why change?" They really don't care what the workers say, they pretty much do their own thing. Yet some have meeting in their home and they go to most meetings. The way things are nowadays, the workers are afraid to say anything to these people. Some of them think they will be able to change things. It is interesting that most of the changes that have occurred in the last few years have occurred as ex-members have provided more information to those in the group, and workers have felt the pressure of enlightened people. I'm not sure what changes the current 2x2 reformation group wishes to make. I don't know that there is even a consensus among them as to what is needed. However, we will watch as things unfold. What is important to the reform group? How free do people want to be, I wonder? 11/97

I am wondering about the general feelings regarding Special Meetings. In my home, my mother believes that the workers are Christ's representatives on earth. As such, she welcomes each one with great respect ... and she works incredibly hard to prepare for their visit. 11/97

I wouldn't doubt that your Mom works hard to prepare for the workers, a number of the friends bend over
backwards to put on the Ritz for them.

My feelings are such that I feel like the workers are wasting my time when they are over at my parents
place. I find that you can't be yourself, or do your own thing. I also find that you sit around the dinner
table long after the meal is finished just talking about nothing. 

Being overly polite, killing yourself to put out for the workers is "normal" behavior I would think.  

In my family it was always a REALLY big deal when the workers came to visit, whether it was for special meetings, gospel meetings or when they were just passing through. My mom was a single parent and she worked like crazy to make sure the house was clean, meals were ready, and we kids were presentable. It was definitely a special occasion. 11/97

My sister and her husband (very highly regarded saints) won't even consider looking at the web sites and won't read any book about religion or God lest it cause them to "lose out". So sad that they feel their faith is so fragile. I often think that if the men who became apostles had been so closed minded, that they would still be pouring over the old testament for their answers and Jesus would have gone unheeded. 11/97

Nearly all of us still have family and friends
that we love dearly still in and we *know* that
the friends are some of the most wonderful people
on Earth.  I *am* quite upset with workers who
cover up and mislead and otherwise abuse the 
power that these trusting people have given them.
I am upset that they have taken upon themselves 
to decide what is in the best interest of the
people they "watch over" to know.   11/97 

Our experience, since we have left the fellowship, has been that any expression of disagreement meets with silence or criticism. 12/97

Any bitterness is because of the false, conditional love we found in family and friends we have previously loved and trusted. 12/97