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This is another quote from **** from a post of his
dated 1:55 am tuesday july 18, 2000 :
"Christ is the son of God. Christ is the ALMIGHTY GOD! "
It is of no concern to me who said this it just happened to
be **** :) and I am not trying to judge his beliefs.
I am just trying to figure out what the 2X2 Church believes
about Jesus.
Is this what the majority believe and what is taught?
Could I stand up in a Sunday meeting and say "Jesus is the
almighty God!" Just wondering ...
Does a doctrinal statement exist put out by believers in this
Church? ( I don't think so but ... )
Tell me what you believe as a 2X2 or what
you believed when you were a 2X2 or what you feel is the
group's beliefs on this subject. +++++++
I'm willing to bet if you go back through 100 YEARS worth of notes, you'll find precious little on either the Trinity or grace. It was the fact that those two *foundational Christian doctrines* were unknown to us, after 50 years of professing, that was the primary reason we left "The Truth" three years ago. (I say "unknown" - meaning not understood. I had heard vaguely of them through the years, and the little I did hear was usually in a derogatory sense - "worldly/false" doctrines.) Neither I, nor my husband and family, understood their true meaning and significance. IMHO, *very* few of the friends do. Now, I was a copious notetaker, and sat through conventions in many states, as well as several countries - over a nearly 50-year timespan. Since I missed hearing these marvelous, wondrous truths, which **** claims are a part of the 2x2 belief system, I am definitely a dunce! I think we need to keep in mind that there are varying definitions of the word grace. The meaning of it as understood by Christians all over the world is not necessarily the meaning the friends/workers attach to it, when they do use it. Remember I said I just had a vague idea of its meaning? As used by the workers, it seemed to mean some kind of strength, or power, from God. Just recently, that was verified to some friends of ours by an eastern overseer. The definition of grace that he gave was: the power to lead a godly life. That is not the definition given by Cruden's Concordance, which is: the free - and unmerited - mercy of God, or the enjoyment of His favor. Now, Cruden's definition, once I had incorporated it into some of the grace verses in Romans, is what brought me to my knees at the foot of the Cross. A light went on in my head - and heart - and I knew what it was to truly worship Jesus, my Lord and Savior. Understanding the real meaning of grace changed my life. I didn't realize it then, but now I know that at that moment, I was born again. The joy of salvation rang clearly in my heart, my life turned a corner, and nothing has been the same since. Now, I was a diehard "truther." I loved it. I was happy in it. LOVED my role as elder's wife. I did NOT want to leave. It was the hardest decision of all our lives, by far. Originally, it was finding out about the history that was the catalyst. I was absolutely devastated, because I had complete trust in what those old Irish workers had always told us. But you know, that probably wouldn't have been enough to make me leave. I could have somehow rationalized my way around it, in order to stay in. For me, it was the discovery of God's Amazing Grace and of Who Jesus really is - the Almighty God, as **** wrote - that did it. The longer we continued going to meeting, the clearer it became what is really worshiped there: the WAY, the WORKERS, the SYSTEM - and oh yes, we're thankful for Jesus, too. In time, I actually began to feel that I was betraying Christ by being in meeting. I apologize if that offends some, and it may indeed. It probably would have offended me, some years ago! But that's my own personal experience, and everyone's experience is valid *for them*. Well, I never intended to go on so! I'm sorry - kinda got carried away! Please understand that my love for the friends - and workers - is still very much intact. In fact, it's stronger, if anything. I value your posts, and understand - so well! - your struggles in the system, AND your defense of it. Everyone has to do what is right between your God and you. In the loving grip of grace! Jeanie Dudley 18 July 2000
Jeanie wrote: "Understanding the real meaning of grace changed my life. I didn't realize it then, but now I know that at that moment, I was born again. The joy of salvation rang clearly in my heart, my life turned a corner, and nothing has been the same since."
Jeanie, as you know your experience mirrors mine exactly!
I have tears in my eyes and a rush of joy in my heart again as I hear you tell of the wondrous amazing grace of our Father. This to me was the unmistakable movement of the Holy Spirit in my life too and I'm full of gratitude to God for you because you were the messenger who brought the message to me!
And what was the most important thing? The MESSAGE. It also changed my life completely, turned my thinking upside down, focused my mind on what God wants to do in me instead of what I can do for him. And brought me JOY I had never known before. Why was that kept from me in the meetings? How can the workers not know grace when it is the pivotal point of the Gospel?
This is so serious to me that I find it hard to listen to **** telling us it doesn't matter that the workers don't understand these things yet. It does matter, it matters more than anything else, and to me it is so serious I could not uphold the doctrinal errors of the Truth because they prevented the grace of God being a reality for me. My eternal welfare was at stake!
Now I truly know I am His child forever. All glory to Him. It was nothing of me.
Love and peace, Elaine 18 July 2000
Elaine, you wrote: "...I'm full of gratitude to God for you because you were the messenger who brought the message to me! And what was the most important thing? The message. It also changed my life completely, turned my thinking upside down, focussed my mind on what God want's to do in me instead of what I can do for him. And brought me JOY I had never known before. Why was that kept from me in the meetings? How can the workers not know grace when it is the pivital point of the Gospel?" Glad you realize it's the MESSAGE, not the messenger, Elaine! : >) (But I do appreciate your words of encouragement.) Yes, after 2,000 years, our Lord Jesus is still in the business of turning people's lives upside down! Salvation is so much about what GOD has done for US, rather than what WE do for HIM. I, too, feel that grace is the pivotal point of the Gospel; without it, there is no Gospel. Certainly, not the Good News gospel! You also wrote: "I could not uphold the doctrinal errors of the Truth because they prevented the grace of God being a reality for me. My eternal welfare was at stake!" That's *exactly* why I, personally, left "The Truth," Elaine! I felt that it (the system) had *hindered* me from understanding God's credible grace. It was like a veil over my eyes. I think it does that for many people. I remember our elder (a deep thinker), in his testimony, coming so close, just about teetering on the edge of grace from some biblical study, only to fall back into the familiar Only Right Way thinking again. It was like a wall/veil that blocked him from seeing grace. I wonder if anyone else has ever experienced that? Compelled by grace, Jeanie 19/7/00
It has been my experience that while a FEW workers and friends MAY believe that Jesus is God (or God, the Son) MOST DO NOT! That is why very few of us have EVER heard this from the workers.
After I left the fellowship I had occasion to speak with a more senior worker in Sasktchewan.
True to form, Jim did everything he could to avoid answering my question. He left the room, he changed the subject and he even complemented me on a calendar I'd made in hopes that I'd drop my question. I did not. I pressed him for an answer. I was not going to give up without his answer. Eventually he DID answer. To my question of "Jim, do you believe that Jesus is God?" he FINALLY ANSWERED and I quote him exactly: "Well how could he be?!"
**** wrote: "Yes, many workers and friends believe Jesus is God too because he came from the FATHER."
Well, I'm not so sure about the 'he came from the FATHER' part but I too believe that Jesus is God; more specifically that He is God the Son. This is what most Christian denominations believe. In fact one characteristic of a cult is that they DENY THE DEITY OF JESUS CHRIST. Or, in other words. they deny that Jesus is God. (Two LARGE cults that deny the deity of Jesus are the Mormons and the Jehovah's Witnesses.) I am glad that **** wrote "many workers and friends believe ...." Notice that he did not write *ALL* workers and friends believe Jesus is God..." Personally I would NOT go as far as **** has in his statement. I would say "SOME workers and friends MAY believe that Jesus is God."
Case in point. I know an EX couple where SHE always believed (as a 2x2) that Jesus was God and her husband NEVER heard of such a thing. Both were B&R (born and raised in the group.) The wife 'gleaned' this insightful knowledge FROM one of the 2x2 hymns! Which one? Well, it is in the OLD "Hymns Old and New" #239 fourth verse says: "Cease not to worship the Father and Son, The Holy Spirit, and these Three are One." Notice the CAPS on the words "these Three are One." Well, I don't know what you were told about WHY a new hymn book was published in 1987. The workers have given many answers to that question. When I asked I was told that SOME of the beliefs in the hymns in the 1951 HYMNS OLD AND NEW were WRONG and needed to be corrected. That hymn, which contained CORRECT DOCTRINE about the Trinity, has NOT been included in the new hymn book! It was the one that began: "Cease not to praise God for all He had done..." Isn't it a shame that they didn't leave that one in; maybe more of the friends would have learned WHO Jesus is! There will be a lot of exes on here who will HAVE NEVER IN THEIR LIVES HEARD FROM THE WORKERS OR THE FRIENDS THAT JESUS IS GOD. And guess what? THAT JESUS IS GOD THE SON (not just God's Son) IS ONE OF THE BASIC BELIEFS OF CHRISTIANITY. IT IS FOUNDATIONAL. NECESSARY TO UNDERSTAND. AND *MOST* IMPORTANT. Now, having said that I am fully aware that SOME exes do NOT believe this. The fact is that this Trinity concept, or as **** also correctly called it, The Godhead, is not easy for us humans to grasp. Jesus is One in the Trinity (a word not in the Bible.) It simply means three. The Father (whom we call GOD) is part of this Trinity; the SON (whom we call Jesus) is part of this Trinity and the Holy Spirit (or Holy Ghost) is part of this Trinity. These are NOT three separate Gods (I've heard a worker try to say there are 3 Gods! He suggested, as do the JW's that Jesus is "a god." This is not so.) God can BE anything He wants to!
[Compare this Trinity to an every day egg. There are 3 parts to each egg: The Yolk, the White and the Shell. Three parts - but one egg.] **** correctly wrote: "This is a revelation must reveal by the Holy Spirit. Eventually, those who take time to study they will see Jesus Is God! ( the 2nd Person of the Godhead)." I TOTALLY agree with ****'s statement. Still, I am always baffled by **** trying to prove that 'this way' goes back to Jesus because **** seems to understand Salvation by Grace/Jesus' sacrifice for our sins (another topic) and WHO Jesus is. And that's what's important. We need to KNOW Jesus and we need to TRUST that His death has removed our SIN! Period! We do NOT need to be in some WAY that 'seemingly' POINTS to Jesus. Nor do we need a MESSENGER to POINT us to Jesus. (Someone CAN point us to Jesus but this is NOT a necessity.) We have the Bible. PEOPLE GET SAVED BY READING THE BIBLE!!!! THE BIBLE IS GOD'S WORD. God did NOT establish a ministry to be some kind of a Way-Shower.
**** said: "The Holy Spirit will teach and reveal ALL the workers and the friends according to his time."
Maybe the workers aren't very good listeners ****! The workers have had just over 100 years and most of them still don't get it!
Oh, and BTW, we haven't even touched on WHO the Holy Spirit is. I believe most workers think the Holy Spirit is some kind of a force or a 'move' of God. Nope! "HE" is God too! Glad to see you refer to The Holy Spirit as "he" and "his" ****. We agree that The Holy Spirit is never an IT! The Holy Spirit is God just as much as God the Father is God and God the Son (Jesus) is God. The neat part about the Holy Spirit is that He not only convicts us of our sin but He teaches us too! And YES I agree with you **** that each person will understand the Trinity when the Holy Spirit guides them into that understanding. My understanding of WHO JESUS IS came as a result of reading a book which stated: "All cults deny the deity of Jesus Christ. Refer to John 1:1 + 14." The book I was reading did not say WHO Jesus was but only directed me to the scripture. The Holy Spirit, in turn, revealed to me exactly what I had been missing! How wonderful to know WHO Jesus is! Sandi G 18 July 2000
I'm a 3rd generation born and raised in it, married to
another 3rd generation born and raised in it (B+R),
who professed for 23 years until I left the group at age 36.
Even though we have been out of the group for over 9 years, we
still have close family -including workers-in the group. The
difference in our understanding of scripture, in some cases,
seems to cause some in the group to hold us at arm's length. If
there were changes in understanding, there would be no reason for
the "stand-offishness" to continue and no reason for them to
continue to avoid conversation about these things with us.
Therefore, I have no reason to conclude that any significant
changes have taken place in their understanding in the last few
years.)
The closest I ever recall coming to hear about the subject of
Jesus being God from anyone in the group while I was a part of
the group were negative comments made about the Trinity, which I
never really heard further explained than by saying, "It's a
Catholic doctrine." By which, we all knew it was of no value
because we had never been given ANY reason to respect and/or
trust the Catholics and what they knew (or didn't know) about the
Bible... they were the worst of the worst of the "false
churches," weren't they? (I believe this experience is a pretty
accurate depiction of the experience of my husband, my parents,
my siblings and my siblings' spouses --all also B&R... and other
extended family with whom we have visited about this subject.)
I also was a copious note-taker... even when I had babies, I went
to the convention nursery when they napped and took notes there.
If others were visiting in the nursery and making it hard for me
to hear, I moved closer to the speaker so I wouldn't miss
anything. Before the days of traveling mikes for the
testimonies, I transcribed my shorthand notes during the
testimony time if I was in the nursery. When the traveling mikes
came along and we could hear all the testimonies, I was
delighted. I valued the thoughts from the other friends and
appreciated being able to share all of them... I even took notes
on the testimonies, with notation of who was speaking, when I
knew them personally. I always thought about what I was
hearing... some things, I know now I was guilty of "rearranging"
in my own mind to suit my own understanding... but even those
things didn't "just go right over my head" so that I simply
didn't give them any thought. Some things I questioned and even
rejected some after that consideration as NOT being scriptural.
It wasn't until I first read HAS THE TRUTH SET YOU FREE? a few
months after I left the group that I was really first introduced
to the concept of a Triune God. It also wasn't until that point
that I even gave much thought to my understanding of the nature
of Christ. It wasn't a subject which had ever been given much
emphasis in the group, in my experience. Up to that point, my
belief was that Jesus belonged to a "divine" group which probably
also included the angels, though he was definitely higher than
the angels. Yet, I certainly did not understand him to be God.
Such an idea --placing ANYONE else on a equal plain with God--
would have been, to my mind, quite blasphemous.
I was, therefore, EXTREMELY troubled when I read the chapter
about the Trinity in the Luxon's book. While I couldn't deny
that those verses really were in the Bible and had to agree that
they SEEMED to be saying just what the Luxon's suggested, I still
had that aversion to such "irreverant thinking" as to place Jesus
equal to God. Because of my value for scripture, I couldn't just
walk away from these thoughts, though. So, tearfully and
prayerfully I pondered these things... it was several months
later before I realized that, though I still didn't/couldn't
really comprehend it all, I now believed that Jesus was indeed
God the Son and that's just what the Bible teaches.
Since leaving the group and coming to this understanding, I have
talked with one ex-worker who says he understood Jesus to be God
before he went into the work. I have also heard that Mabel
Gibson taught the Trinity. (I am not clear, however, if she
spoke clearly about this in the meetings or if this only came up
in private conversation.) More recently there were a couple
quotes that were circulated (probably they are somewhere on VOT
now). I believe one of them came from Carson Cowin (sp?) who was
attempting to explain the concept of the Triune God in a
meeting. The other, I believe, was Willis Propp categorically
denying the possibility that Jesus could be thought to be God.
These two quotes were circulated together because they were
expressed in messages from these two workers at about the same
time.
So, that makes 5 workers (if we add Leo and **** to the count)
that understood Jesus to be God. In my 36 years of professing,
I've known and listened to and talked with quite a number of
workers… the 5 would be a minute percentage of the whole. (Of
course, some others may have had this understanding, too, but
they didn't talk about it in my hearing.) Because it was such a
STRANGE concept for me to consider when I DID finally hear of it,
I don't believe it would ever have been possible for me to simply
miss it, if anyone spoke about it clearly in my hearing.
My husband visited several conventions and special meetings after
we left the group and we did quite a bit of communicating with
different ones in the group. Perhaps the subject he was most
interested in was what the group believes about who Jesus is.
Therefore, he also had conversations with several older workers
(generally pre-scheduled and private) after their messages to
question them further on the things that they had said and their
belief on who Jesus is. In all the conversations we have had, I
don't recall ONE where ANYONE in the group agreed that the Bible
teaches Jesus is God. Some have done a pretty good job of
attempting to evade the question and talking around the subject
so they wouldn't have to answer it out-right. No one has plainly
said, "Yes, I believe Jesus is God." The horrified response of one
2x2 lady was, "I will NEVER believe that Jesus is God!"
(I believe there are a few more professing (2x2) people we
have "met" through the lists and now the message boards
who also believe Jesus is God, but by far and above, our
general experience has been that people in the group do
NOT believe this. Love and Prayers, Connie J 18/7/00
July 19, 2000 Connie's post reminded me of another instance. I had sent out an EXIT LETTER to over 100 2x2 families a few months after leaving the sect. My letter covered a number of things including the history cover-up and WHO Jesus is. Three weeks after I sent out this letter I was speaking with my best 2x2 friend; a lady I loved and respected very much. While professing I had considered her a knowledgeable professing person. She indicated her shock at having received my exit letter: "Sandi! I can't believe you sent that letter! William Irvine did NOT start the Truth. And JESUS is *NOT* God!!!!!" Her emphasis on the part about Jesus was as if to say that I was being blasphemous! She made it VERY clear that she did NOT believe Jesus is/was God! - Sandi
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." That's what it says. "God *created* the heavens and the earth." It doesn't say, "God *made* the heavens and the earth." Nor does it say that he "xeroxed" the heavens and the earth. Or "built" or developed" or "mass-produced." No, the word is *created.*
And that one word says a lot. Creating is something far different than constructing. The difference is pretty obvious. Constructing something engages only the hands while creating something engages the heart and the soul.
You've probably noticed this in your own life. Think about something you've created. A painting perhaps. Or a song. Those lines of poetry you never showed to anyone. Or even the doghouse in the backyard.
How do you feel toward that creation? Good? I hope so. Proud? Even protective? You should. Part of you lives in that project. When you create something you are putting yourself into it. It's far greater than an ordinary assignment or task; it's an expression of you!
Now, imagine God's creativity. Of all we don't know about the creation, there is one thing we do know--he did it with a smile. He must've had a blast. Painting the stripes on the zebra, hanging the stars in the sky, putting the gold in the sunset. What creativity! Stretching the neck of the giraffe, putting the flutter in the mockingbird's wings, planting the giggle in the hyena.
What at time he had. Like a whistling carpenter in his workshop, he loved every bit of it. He poured himself into the work. So intent was his creativity that he took a day off at the end of the week just to rest.
And then, as a finale to a brilliant performance, he made man. With his typical creative flair, he began with a useless mound of dirt and ended up with an invaluable species called a human. A human who had the unique honor to bear the stamp, "In His Image."
At this point in the story one would be tempted to jump and clap. "Bravo!" "Encore!" "Unmatchable!" "Beautiful!"
But the applause would be premature. The Divine Artist has yet to unveil his greatest creation.
As the story unfolds, a devil of a snake feeds man a line and an apple, and gullible Adam swallows them both. This one act of rebellion sets in motion a dramatic and erratic courtship between God and man. Though the characters and scenes change, the scenario repeats itself endlessly. God, still the compassionate Creator, woos his creation. Man, the creation, alternately reaches out in repentance and runs in rebellion.
It is within this simple script that God's creativity flourishes. If you thought he was imaginative with the sea and the stars, just wait until you read what he does to get his creation to listen to him!
For example: A ninety-year-old woman gets pregnant. A woman turns to salt. A flood blankets the earth. A bush burns (but doesn't burn up!). The Red Sea splits in two. The walls of Jericho fall. The sky rains fire. A donkey speaks.
Talk about special effects! But these acts, be they ever ingenious, still couldn't compare with what was to come.
Nearing the climax of the story, God, motivated by love and directed by divinity, surprised everyone. He became a man. In an untouchable mystery, he disguised himself as a carpenter and lived in a dusty Judaean village. Determined to prove his love for his creation, he walked incognito through his own world. His calloused hands touched wounds and his compassionate words touched hearts. He became one of us.
Have you ever seen such determination? Have you ever witnessed such a desire to communicate? If one thing didn't work, he'd try another. If one approach failed, he'd try a new one. His mind never stopped. "In the past God spoke...at *many* times and in *various* ways," writes the author of Hebrews, "but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son."
But as beautiful as this act of incarnation was, it was not the zenith. Like a master painter God reserved his masterpiece until the end. All the earlier acts of love had been leading to this one. The angels hushed and the heavens paused to witness the finale. God unveils the canvas and the ultimate act of creative compassion is revealed.
God on a cross.
THE CREATOR BEING SACRIFICED FOR THE CREATION. God convincing man once and for all that forgiveness still follows failure.
I wonder if, while on the cross the Creator allowed his thoughts to wander back to the beginning. One wonders if he allowed the myriad of faces and acts to parade in his memory. Did he reminisce about the creation of the sky and sea? Did he relive the conversations with Abraham and Moses? Did he remember the plagues and the promises, the wilderness and the wanderings? We don't know.
We do know, however, what he said.
The mission was finished. All that the master painter needed to do was done and was done in splendor. His creation could now come home.
"It is finished!" he cried.
And the great Creator went home.
(He's not resting, though. Word has it that his tireless hands are preparing a city so glorious that even the angels got goose bumps upon seeing it. Considering what he has done so far, that is one creation I plan to see.)
From Max Lucado's book:
NO WONDER THEY CALL HIM THE SAVIOR.