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We were told from the platform that we had to be physically in this world, but that we were not to be "of" the world, or "part of" the world. In other words, we were not to let any of the world's ways contaminate us. We were here only temporarily and we were to concentrate on "heavenly goals". The only reason we were here on earth was to further the causes of the "gospel", ie "the Way." Any other reasons for living such as working, getting married, having kids, having fun, etc., was supposed to take a very far back seat. This separation was somewhat physical (we couldn't play with outsiders and rarely had any outsiders in our house; we didn't attend any worldly functions at home or on vacations) but mostly a mental separation. We were to keep our thoughts, our desires, and even our wishes out of the influence of worldly things. This brought tremendous guilt, of course, because all around you there are pretty dolls (which you can't have because they look worldly), pretty clothes (and you have to remain modest--nothing that glitters or is of bright colors), boys (we couldn't mention a boy's name in our house, and the subject of dating could not even be mentioned--because it was assumed all we thought about was going into the work--and if we entertained other thoughts, we were shamed). The physical separation resulted in us being social outcasts, lacking in those necessary socialization skills which are almost impossible to pick up as an adult (you begin learning those in the sand box). The mental separation left us feeling left out and depressed and like we were here in this world, but not really living. I'm so glad that this world was given for us to enjoy. And that God meant for us to love life and live it abundantly--to the full, and I try to do just that every day! Love, Rosalie 9/99
The friends believe that their lifestyle will positively attract the attention of anyone seeking God. Upon an interest expressed the interested party needs to go to the public meetings. At the meetings the one and only true sent ministry will teach the interested party with the help of the Holy Spirit. At some point the interested party will come to see that the friends and the workers are the only true church and are in the only true way of following Jesus. The attention given to the interested party will speak volumes to the interested party as far as love goes. Further, the interested party will come to see and accept that the only witness of love that the world will see is the friends' adherence to their lifestyle and how they always go to meetings. 2/97
>Question: >I am new to this discussion group, and I was curious to see what it is >about. I am a Christian, but I do not know what it means when people >refer to "2x2's". Can anyone give me a simple answer? Thanks. Most of us here were (some still are) involved in a Christian group that we refer to as the 2x2s (pronounced 2 by 2). The group has followers in almost every country. Why the nickname? Because the group claims to not have a name but their ministers go out 2 by 2 unmarried. The leaders of the group teach that it is the original church Jesus started when he was here and they take many verses out of context to prove it their way. Of course now we realize it is not the original church and in recent years we found out it was started in 1897 by Wm Irvine and Ed Cooney in Ireland. It is quite a legalistic group with strict (unwritten) rules especially for women's appearance and other things. Most deny the triune nature of God although they won't admit there is any disagreement. (but there is). They say to be saved, you must be in contact with their ministers and way, and they reject Christians from other groups. Of course they even more severely reject the ones that leave their group if they say it is not the only way, similar to the JWs and Mormons would do. etc etc etc. 2/97
You say you've been professing for over 5 years having come in as an outsider. In my opinion, if you've only been professing for a little over 5 years, you're still most likely being "wooed." Therefore, you will likely get more answers and a more gentle attitude to your questioning, than a "seasoned" member would. Maybe they are still even waiting for you to really "get it." Have you been baptized yet, or have you talked to them about taking that step? 10/97 Connie Jacobsen
I recall a time that I invited two sisters from my high school and a friend of theirs to the Jackson, Mississippi convention which was held on my parents' property. I had become close friends with them. They spent the whole day with me at conv. The older girl stood up during testimony and patiently waited her turn. She wore her shoulder length hair down, but other than that, her attire and appearance fit in fine with the rest of the professing women. I didn't know what to do! I raised my eyebrows inquisitively at my mother who shrugged her shoulders. The brother worker directing the testimonies was a visitor, who would not have known anything about the status of my friend who was waiting her turn to speak. He pointed to everyone in the tent one by one, to give their testimonies--everyone but her, that is. And then, he called out a hymn and said those who wanted to could stand and sing. She sat down in confusion as everybody else got up to sing. Was this deliberate or an accident I wondered? No one on the platform had conferred with him or sent him a note. A sister worker came up to us after meeting and kindly said that she had noticed her standing and waiting, and not to feel bad, that he probably hadn't seen her, etc., indicating that it wasn't a deliberate slight. We were sitting smack dab in the middle of the tent, in the middle of a row and were not hidden in any way. He had pointed to people all around her. If he was snubbing her because he didn't approve of her hair that didn't show much wisdom. How did he know she hadn't just "made her choice" and was a newly professing convert? He could have easily offended a "little one." And what if she had been thinking about professing???? He sure put a stop to that! I have noticed that when outsiders do speak/pray during convention or special meetings, that the worker on the platform will usually say "thank you" at the end, rather than nod affirmatively and say "amen." Similarly, when a worker/friend views you as an outsider and not one of them, they sign their letters some way OTHER THAN: "Your bro/sis in Christ." 10/97
When I was just a child at an Ontario convention, (this could have been special meeting) one woman got up to speak. (Sadie Jessup, from Picton, Ontario. She is deceased now.) She stood up and loudly proclaimed across the meeting that Carson Cowan (Ontario overseer) was the serpent and George Walker (still alive at this time) was the devil. I have heard my family speak of it many times, laughing at this woman's ignorance and misunderstanding. I believe today that she knew the truth!! 10/97
One of the first things that outsiders pick up when they go to a meeting is their condemnation of other churches. 10/97 Lynn Cooper
Not all of us had the "privilege" of a 2x2 upbringing. Those who have professed as "outsiders" in the last 20 or 25 years likely have a much different view of what it is/was like being in the fellowship.
I didn't grow up in a professing home so I didn't get the "benefit" of a 2x2 parental upbringing. Regarding professing as an outsider, not being a raised-in-it had its advantages and disadvantages. I suppose one advantage is we had less spiritual abuse to endure and to shed after leaving.
While professing, though, it was more difficult to know what to do and what not to do! ie We never got the rules given to us STRAIGHT! We had to "ask around" and hope to get a straight answer or we had to observe and hope we picked up everything we needed to know, and do, so as not to appear "less willing" or "less humble" than the raised-in-its.
I remember looking around at my first Sunday house meeting to see if it was OK to cross my legs in the meeting!
There were a lot of little things that, in retrospect, I never did pick up on. For example, I always said "heck" when I was professing. Never noticed that others around me in the Way didn't say that. (I must have been embarrassing myself year after year without even knowing it! ha ha Can one embarrass one's self and not know it? ;-^ )
In the late 70's, at my first convention, I wore a dress with a once inch sleeve! Not much of a sleeve! I looked at what the other ladies at convention were wearing and consequently I felt a bit awkward and wondered if I had made an error! I checked with "the worker I knew best" and asked for her advice. She was gracious and said "Well, maybe next year you could add on a few inches."
My point is that no one ever took me aside when I goofed up and explained my error and it took a lot of work to figure out all the rules! I'm sure there were lots of rules that I never did catch on to.
Anyway, I could have got into the swing of things a lot more efficiently and I could have appeared a lot more Christ-like if the workers had provided me with a book of do's and don'ts!! Hmmmmmm, maybe if I'd seen a list of rules I wouldn't have stayed around so long! Can you imagine what a list like that would have contained? 10/97 Sandi
>>I remember looking around at my first Sunday house meeting to see if it was OK to cross my legs in the meeting!<< HA!! I got a good laugh on that one! I bet you could think of a lot more examples if you tried! Go ahead--dig ‘em up for us! I was amused at the thoughts of two people who were Latecomers to "the truth" (who married mates who professed) who were having dinner at my home. These two were talking about their early days in "the truth" and some of their misconceptions back then. Randy had noticed at the friends' get-togethers, that Coca Cola wasn't served. (Oklahoma is Pepsi Country!). So he figured there was some sort of Taboo on Cokes. Mary said she had observed and decided the professing woman dress code for dresses was long-waisted dresses and that professing ladies were to wear belts. At the time, these things seemed so ridiculously funny to me. I had never known or thought about what Latecomers go through trying to figure out how to just fit in and not be conspicuous. Seems the Latecomers admire the certainty of those Born & Raised in it; while the Born & Raised in it wish they had no conscious instilled in them about a lot of things they saw nothing wrong with (like the Latecomers had none), but felt guilty and condemned if they did them. I can identify with the Latecomers feelings of uncertainty, as I have been in other group situations where I was treading warily, doing a lot of observing, not being sure what was acceptable attitude and protocol. To their credit, the friends and workers do, however, give a newly professing person a lot of leeway or grace. They would have just thought you didn't know any better (yet), Sandi, for wearing your very short sleeves, and wouldn't have looked down on you at all. I remember one newly professing woman who brought her two little girls to convention--and all she brought them to wear were shorts and tops--no dresses. The little girls looked very out of place, but were so young I doubt the girls noticed they were different. Sure stood out tho--!! As does a woman who comes to convention wearing slacks. In my experience, the majority of the truthers do grant grace to "those who don't know any better." When Latecomers become aware of one of the earlier "blunders" they made, they sometimes react with fear that this lowered them in the friend's esteem: "Oh NO! What did they think of me when I did/said that?" I think it's safe to say, most of the time, they didn't think a thing about it. They knew you did/said it in ignorance; that you "just didn't understand" it all yet. 10/97
>>Go ahead--dig em up for us!<<
Well, early on that is the one I best recall. But, OK, here are a few more:
You said:>In my experience, the majority of the truthers do grant grace to "those>who don't know any better." When Latecomers become aware of one of the>earlier "blunders" they made, they sometimes react with fear that this>lowered them in the friend's esteem: "Oh NO! What did they think of me>when I did/said that?" I think it's safe to say, most of the time, they>didn't think a thing about it. They knew you did/said it in ignorance;>that you "just didn't understand" it all yet.
Yes, I understand and I agree. HOWEVER, I think I continued on "not getting it" and making blunders all the years I professed! And how many years would this "grace" be extended to me by the friends?
For me there was that fear of "messing up" because of the rules I didn't know. I sensed that the born-in-its were aware that I didn't always "have it right." Consequently I tended to clam up around the friends especially in larger gatherings. I think this is one of the reasons my personality changed while I was professing. It is hard to conform when you don't know the "standard."
I would observe the "errors" of newcomers who came in after me. Their blunders were obvious to me so I felt I was still making some too and others were seeing mine!
As a side note it was quite a hoot when a worker would say "We don't have any rules!"
One last thing. For an outsider/newcomer it is difficult to learn the 2x2 code words/terminology. "Worldly kids" is one of them that hit me kind of funny. 10/97 - Sandi
I just read your post about things you didn't "get right" and was saddened and amused at the same time. The code word that sticks in my craw (no - it INFURIATES me !) is: "divided home". The unmitigated gall to label a family and home "divided" simply because one member is lucky or enlightened enough not to be brainwashed by that group, is beyond the pale. It totally ignores the hopes and dreams of a couple and insidiously plants misconceptions about the spouse and their life together, into the mind of the "professing" member. This encouragement of disharmony, this deliberate undermining of marriages and disregard for sacred unions, can have disastrous results.
As you can tell, the subject strikes a nerve in me ! Thanks for letting me blow off steam. 10/97 Joyce Kettren
I agree with you that labeling a home a "divided home" does as you state: >It totally ignores the hopes and dreams of a couple and insidiously plants misconceptions about the spouse and their life together, into the mind of the "professing" member. This encouragement of disharmony, this deliberate undermining of marriages and disregard for sacred unions, can have disastrous results.> I don't know if they think the "professing" member needs to hear this as a warning or are they trying to insinuate that they are as good as divorced??? This also can have a negative effect on children. There seems to be fear of these children associating with children of homes where both parents profess. I suppose these days there is a possibility that children and/or mate might be exposed to the material/books that are out ???? 10/97 Joan Daniel
Having recognized the importance of being united in our
"religious direction" and having been VERY careful to marry a
professing guy, I think it's a fair statement to say that NOTHING was
more personally painful to me in my 2x2 experience than _____'s
decision to quit "professing" when we were expecting our 2nd child.
It was also extremely distressing when we received our first "book
of life" in which _____'s name was recorded in parentheses...
evidence to all of that "divided home" status at our home. I was not
so ready to write _____ off as LOST as the rest of the group seemed
to be... some who had even quit shaking his hand at meeting after he
quit taking part. (That being their ONLY reaction... not even
visiting with either _____ or myself before passing such judgment and
meting out such punishment!?)
Yes... I DEFINITELY agree that the attitude of the group seeks to
divide even FURTHER such a couple. And the stories all came back to
mind during those years... from early childhood, I had heard message
after message from the platform about women whose husbands didn't
want them to profess... who even "raised the roof" and threatened to
leave them if they insisted in going to the meeting... always the
story told of the woman taking her Bible (if her husband would let
her have it) and proceeding to walk out the door. Oh, that woman
(getting to meetings even in the face of such obstacles) was always
held up as a most VIRTUOUS woman! (I also received some extra kudos,
at times, from a few for "keeping faithful" in spite of _____'s
choice to walk away.) 10/97
One thing that has been extra significant for me is that I have this overwhelming love for everyone. Before, I was conditioned to feel different about worldly people, I can't quite describe it but it was just that I shut them off at a certain point in my life, and even though I still did worldly things I never quite let my worldly friends really all the way in. But now I am taking those friendships to new levels, making more of an effort to plan things and wanting to be with them more. It feels really good because I have some great friends and I was ripping myself off big time. So I am venturing forth with this new freedom and experiencing many new feelings and situations. My relationship with God has also changed, I have a new desire to read and pray and to know God with a differen perception. For this I am thankful. 11/97
We never appreciated the freedom we had in other churches until we came under the bondage of the 2x2 Church. I hope you will thoroughly check things out. 11/97 Joan Daniel
A year or so before we left the group, a Baptist man came to a few gospel meetings in our area and the workers said to us, "the hard thing will be to get him unsaved first." (People with church experience think they are already saved but actually are not until they accept the Way and the workers). Of course they didn't tell him that but it was common talk behind the scene. 11/97
A "newcomer/outsider" asked an Ex-2x2 a possible reason for the workers coming for a visit. Ex-2x2’s answer: "Probably not to get right down to business too quickly but to gently get you guys more on track. Your wife may need some encouragement to begin to look more like the sister workers etc. And you as the head of the family, if you still have some ideas about having a good enough relationship with Christ before you found this way but came here only because it is better, your ideas may need some more work. They tend to talk carefully with those who have more bible knowledge than them but they have one thing going for them and that is that you had some bad experiences in other churches so that helps their image a lot. One question you may not have asked the workers yet is, What must a person do to be saved? You probably thought you already knew. 11/97
Interesting that _______ mentioned the song Rock of Ages which we also had in a booklet with the regular H Old/new. I clearly recall a worker asking me, in gospel meeting, if I could play this in the tune used by "the churches" rather than in the tune in which it was normally sung by2x2s. The worker stated that this would make the newcomers more comfortable. Of course, I played it with relish, but a little bothered that this was needed. This was adding to my knowledge and growing uneasiness regarding how they treated people differently who came from other church backgrounds. 11/97 Joan Daniel
Viewed them as the unsaved multitudes who we were not allowed to socialize with unless we were inviting them to gospel meeting; pretty much sums it up. 11/97
I think we were raised to pity those who were "not saved". At the same time, there was little respect for them because they were "of the world" and "didn't know any better". 2x2 people are very judgmental of others, considering themselves the only ones who "know what is right". At a "'round the table" conversation once with workers, we children were told in no uncertain terms that we were smarter than other kids because we had no tv. I repeated this to a classmate and got the cold shoulder for a while. I felt really bad that I had hurt her feelings and it made me question how workers think and talk about anyone who is not "with them". They don't think of others' feelings. They don't show respect for non-2x2 people, as I have learned since becoming an outsider myself. The fact that they feed this information to children, I think, without further explaining it, shows that this is how they want to train the children to think. I think this snubbing of others' dignity serves to bind the 2x2 group closer as a unit by separating them. 11/97
We were civil to the "worldly" people that surrounded us, but we were not to associate with them. We kept to ourselves so as not to succumb to "worldliness"! To allow us contact with them, would have meant partaking of this world's pleasures.
On viewing "outsiders", that was such an odd feeling. They were nice people, some really nice people and I actually felt more attached to them than to these "professing" people because they treated me with respect. But yet, they supposedly weren't as good. How many times did we all hear in testimonies to not partake of the "world"?
When I started working a few years ago and getting out into the world, I was simply amazed how kind, helpful and non-malicious these so-called "worldly" people are. I am so thankful for the people of this "world" that I have met and work with who have taught me not to be so judgmental.
You know, it's kinda' funny (and not funny ha-ha) how years down the road you find out how people really felt about you years ago. Well, that happened to me today at work and I thought I would just quickly share this with you. Years ago, a lady named Kathy and her family lived a few houses up from us and her boys used to play with my boys. Several transfers to other states and ultimately they moved back to Denver and she now works at the same elementary school that I do. Well, in recent times, I have shared some of the heart-ache that I endured growing up in the 2x2 "way" with Kathy, and so I was sharing with her today that I was signed on to an e-mail list with ex-members of this way and how it was really helping me to unclutter the past and strive for a better relationship with my Creator. Well, at that point, I then found out what the people up and down my street thought about me all those years ago. She said, "We all thought you were so odd and so different. You were nice but you wouldn't participate in anything, much less have a cup of coffee with us. Someone said at the time they thought that you thought you were better than us." As she said this to me, my thought bubble sadly had to agree that, yes, I was stand-offish because I was scared to be around them because they were the "world" and because I was in the "way", I probably did think I was better. (Maybe I just didn't have time to socialize because I was too busy cooking meals for the workers and trying to get my hair so it didn't look so ugly). More accurately, however, I had learned from observing my parents as well as being taught, that we just stand apart, separate and we don't participate or enjoy things with people who are not followers of the "truth". You know how we were always being told to be an example to the "world"? Well, folks, this was the "example" that I portrayed to some really wonderful people that lived on my street and this is the memory that they still carry of me to this day. The unscrupulous authors of this and other teachings just as warped is why decay is now besieging the 2x2 "way!!!!!!!!!!!!!"
Thankfully, God has given me time to untangle these moronic teachings and thankfully, Kathy has learned that I really do not think I am better than her.Thanks for listening and good night. Cheryle Winberg, Westminster, Colorado 1/98
I don't really remember ANY positive remarks about any other group. The2x2s had the corner on the market!! The most positive thing I can recall wasthat another group might be sincere -- but that they were sincerely wrong(said with a self-righteous smirk!)3/98
We were not allowed to have friends outside the way. 3/98
I realized while I was in the church that it was so easy to be smug about how awful it was for outsiders and what a struggle it must be for them. 3/98