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Q: Why don't the workers allow anyone to tape record what is spoken from the platform at convention? You'd think people who have a message to tell would be glad to have it shared with everyone!
A: The 2x2 religion is based on CONTROL and FEAR. The workers like to tell people what to think and how to live. Even though the veil was rent in twain and we can go straight to the Father in the name of Jesus the workers can't trust people to go directly to God. They want their people to go to them first. If new converts were to hear their messages on a tape, before they went to enough meetings to 'get loved-bombed into the Truth,' it would mess up the workers' recruiting methods. Jan 01
In Matt 19:27 Peter said to Jesus, "We have left everything to
follow you!" What did Peter mean by this statement? In Jesus'
response to Peter he said, "every one that hath forsaken houses,
or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or
children, or lands for my name's sake, shall receive an
hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life."
Let's look at this closer... Did Peter literally leave his wife
to go and follow Jesus? Was Jesus instructing the apostles that
day that they needed to literally leave all in order to go and
make disciples? Hebrews 13:8 tells us, "Jesus Christ is the
same yesterday and today and forever." At the sermon on the
mount, Jesus said, "whosoever shall put away his wife, saving
for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery."--
Matt 5:32. Also, that same 19th chapter in Matthew I have
already been referring to, starts out with Jesus having a
discussion with some Pharisees about divorce. Jesus made the
statement that day, "Therefore what God has joined together, let
man not separate."--Matt 19:6. Would the same Jesus who made
those statements then turn around (21 verses later - or even an
eternity later, for that matter) and tell the apostles to leave
their wives and their children? Did Peter (also called Cephas
according to John 1:42) literally leave his wife? Not according
to 1 Cor 9:5 where Paul said, "Don't we have the right to take a
believing wife along with us, as do the other apostles and the
Lord's brothers and Cephas?" (That's a pretty interesting
statement for Paul to make, in light of the teaching in The Way
that the workers are to be homeless and unmarried, and that this
is so because it most closely follows the example of the New
Testament church!)
Yes, it's true that, though there are no longer any married
workers in The Way, there did used to be some. (Why has such a
change occurred in a "changeless" way?) Several of the friends
and workers have assured us when this question comes up that
workers could still marry, but it is just so difficult and
impractical. Wait a minute! Isn't that the same argument I've
heard friends and workers ridiculing when it's made by anyone
outside of The Way? (Not to mention that we know of several
accounts of people who were in the work, got married and wanted
to continue in the work, but have not been allowed to.) Would
Jesus have set in place any plan that would later prove to be
too impractical and difficult? If it was a task too difficult
to perform as a married man, would Jesus have ever called any
married men to fill that place?
Why does sexual immorality continue to surface among the
workers? It's true that in 1 Cor 7 Paul told the
Corinthians, "An unmarried man is concerned about the Lord's
affairs--how he can please the Lord. But a married man is
concerned about the affairs of this world--how he can please his
wife--and his interests are divided... a married woman is
concerned about the affairs of this world--how she can please
her husband."; but Paul also said, "Now to the unmarried and the
widows I say: It is good for them to stay unmarried, as I am.
But if they cannot control themselves, they should marry, for it
is better to marry than to burn with passion." and, "It is good
for a man not to marry. But since there is so much immorality,
each man should have his own wife, and each woman her own
husband." We have already seen that Jesus did not forbid
married apostles... does that restriction for workers in The Way
today create an environment that leads people into sexual
immorality? Paul warned Timothy about those that would abandon
the faith in later times. One of the ways Paul identified those
people was to say, "They forbid people to marry."--1 Tim 4:3.
Is an enforced unmarried ministry really following the New
Testament church most closely, or does the teaching in the Bible
show that decision should be left up to each individual to make
between themselves and God? [And, considering that Jesus
Himself called married men to the position of "apostle," can we
really suppose that a married man would be less devoted and less
capable to lead/pastor Christ's church than an unmarried man or
woman??] 07/00 Connie Jacobsen
There is absolutely no shortage of $$ among the active Workers. In fact, that's one of the aspects that may have clouded some of the bigwigs' integrity. Also, after the person has spent the best years of their life working "for free", they are tossed away like an old banana peel if they cannot continue. Sound bitter? Well, maybe - but it's the stark truth. Love Cheri and Chuck Mattison Jan 19, 2000
I believe in mentioning the GOOD ones and giving them some credit. It is easy to talk about the selfish and the greedy, but there are some good ones who really are dedicated to Christ. I am referring to a worker named Seldon Gillis. I left the 2x2s in 1983 and this man was a worker in TN when my dad had open heart surgery in 1992. I believe he was, without a doubt, one of the kindest and most Christlike workers I have ever met. He died of spinal cancer earlier this year on Prince Edward Island. He wrote to me now and then and never tried to get me to come back into the 2x2. He was merely a kind man and he loved my parents and was so gracious to us and visited my dad at the hospital every day when we were going through some real surgical complications in 1992. I found him so DIFFERENT from most other workers that I have ever met. I found it very nice that he would write to me a couple of times per year, no strings attached, even though I knew he was suffering from a terminal illness. - Jane 26/9/99
I knew Seldon when he was in Ottawa, Ont., Canada when I lived there in the early 1970's. He spent many weeks at our place and he was always willing to talk with me about my concerns. He shared many of them and was quite open with his feelings about what we perceived was wrong with the workers in Ontario. I, too, felt he was one of the kindest, most honest workers I have ever met and I'm sorry to hear of his death. - Eric Brown 26/9/99
I knew Seldon from his many years of doctoring at Mayo Clinic. Quite often he spent weeks at a time in our elder's home. I whole heartedly agree with you, he was a truly good person, appeared to have no condemnation in him and spoke from his heart. He was the kind of person who could say "I never met a man I didn't like," and mean it. He told us once about the Anne of Green Gables books and spoke of how much he loved Prince Edward Island. I have met Catholic priests with the same spirit of love for mankind and selflessness, and always in my mind drew a comparison of Seldon to one of them. He wasn't quite like other workers. He didn't make me feel like I had to maintain an image of reverence to him to be sitting in a meeting, but rather that he felt blessed to be in our presence. I really felt sad when I heard that he had died, but also relieved to know his crippling, painfilled days on this earth had finally ended. Thanks for reminding me again of his gentle life. - Faye 26/9/99
He loved, he helped, he died! That summarizes his life. He was a wonderful man, and he was an example of what a minister of the gospel should be! If every worker was like Seldon, there would be no Ex 2x2's today. We would have a ministry, not a priesthood nor a system.
Seldon and I grew up together on Prince Edward Island. As a young boy he had a lovely way about him - he never lost it. He had the same spirit when I spoke to him two weeks before he left this world. He found ways to help and encourage everyone with whom he came in contact. He was loved by all the children. Everyone looked forward to his visits. He lived simply, was a giver and wanted nothing for himself. He was exceptional.
He always had time to speak to everyone - even at Conventions. Incidentally, he hated preps, thinking that it was a waste of precious time, that could be better spent preaching the gospel. He would often come to the sleeping quarters and visit with everyone. He had no guile - he was transparent and caring. When I had marriage problems and was shunned by the judgmental workers, Seldon was on the phone to help me. When I attended the first convention after my divorce, virtually all the workers - and most of the friends - shunned me. Not Seldon - in front of everyone he took me in his arms - and we wept together!
Tears are obscuring the keyboard and screen as I write this and the memories of the kindest man I ever knew come flooding back. He lived on the western slope, smitten with spinal cancer, for the last fifteen years - facing the setting sun - gratefully and gracefully. His spirit did not change. He was always grateful for the smallest of gifts, especially for a visit.
He had no time for nonsense - gossip - worker gossip especially - was repugnant. He preached being saved by grace, not works - from the platform in his wheelchair. He was shunned by many workers because of this. In the last few years he had few visitors. There was no longer any prestige to be had from visiting him.
He abhorred being a burden to anyone. Accordingly, he asked to be placed in an apartment in Moncton, New Brunswick, equipped for the handicapped. I felt so sorry for him, but he insisted on staying there alone, with visits twice daily of a special nurse - paid by the Province of New Brunswick.
The saddest experience of all was special meeting time in Moncton a few months before he died. On Wednesday night, prior to Special Meetings, there were a dozen workers in the city - they had a special Wednesday night meeting. Seldon was the only person who spent the evening alone. Not one worker came to be with him. As a matter of fact, not one worker or friend visited him that week!
Yet there were over five hundred people at his funeral. The prestige of being seen. However, if there had been a qualification for attending the funeral - only those who had visited him in the last year - there might have been about a dozen there - and its doubtful if there would have been enough workers to have the funeral.
He is gone - forgotten by most - but his spirit and example endure - particularly to some who are now classified as Ex 2x2's who lost out, became bitter, fell away or acquired a wrong spirit. However, I have no doubt where Seldon is and someday Claire and I will join him there.
With love and respect,
Leigh and Claire Townsend
27 September 1999
Leigh and others, I appreciated your tributes to Seldon. Seldon travelled with Lyn and me to Quebec City in 1976. We stayed in a little Hotel in Rue St Anne, with Seldon sharing an adjacent room. I recall Seldon insisting on paying for breakfast next morning. The previous night, I asked Seldon if we could read the Bible. He said he was hoping we would ask. We sat on the edge of Seldon's bed and read the Bible together. Seldon is the only worker with whom I have read the Bible, outside a meeting. He was a special man, made thus by God's power in his life. John
September 27, 1999
The true history about the origin and founder of this group is denied, lied about and covered up—EVEN TO THIS day by the majority of the workers—the ones the friends trust implicitly. Not only is it covered up, but they even substituted in its place a second lie; i.e. that the group started with Jesus sending out the disciples 2x2. When it really started a mere 100 years ago this very year—in 1897! Just a 1900 year gap there between what they told us and in reality!
The worker's gospel is that the possibility of salvation/life with God can only come through their two-and-two, homeless, and unsalaried ministry.
The "old" workers I mentioned in my last message were "Willie" Jamison, and George Walker. My mother still talks about them as if they were one step down from God.
With regard to numbers of remaining believers.... if it were not for childhood indoctrination, there would be only a fraction of the believers there are now…..It is a fact that some families have done a better job of indoctrinating their children than others, and to such families it looks like more profess than otherwise.. Nothing is mentioned in the group of those who leave, via one door or another except to lump them all in the devil's camp or under his control.
She said that she always knew the workers weren't right because they weren't logical and when the workers refused to answer her questions as a teenager, they just in essence told her to shut up and be quiet.
I actually have a soft heart toward the workers. Since learning the history etc. I have tried to imagine how they (especially older ones) must feel if they consider leaving.
I can imagine the incredible devastation to 'workers' who have sacrificed their whole lives, only to learn they have been deceived and have not even preached the true gospel.
He said the higher up he got the more he saw and the more he was disgusted. He tells of the workers backbiting each other and crying on his/his wife's shoulders!
From an early age I saw (through experiences) that the workers were merely fallible human beings. I never put them on a pedestal--I really scorned them in fact. Not something I'm proud of, but it saved me from idolizing them as so many do. I knew they weren't perfect--far from it. They were just like me.
It would really be nice if the workers would put their beliefs in writing!
>>If a worker is over 50 and doesn't have access to any funds and is turned against by other workers and friends for acknowledging the truth about the "Truth" and that same worker leaves the fellowship what on earth would that worker do for a living? <<...... **A real problem to be sure. I'm sure that many of the workers' "nerves" are as a result of being in a bind! (It may not necessarily be the bind of understanding and wanting out. It may just be that they have so many things they would like to say, or do, or be to someone and they just don't dare rock the boat. The friends are in a big enough bind, what with all the control, but the workers are in a bigger bind.)**........>>Various ones who have left the 2x2s have said that they will help workers who find themselves in this situation. Some EX 2x2s are willing to offer them a home until they can proceed with their lives.<< [Admin. note: Refer to RIS site for Email addresses of those willing to house and help any workers should they want support.]
She said that they have often invited them to special meetings, but what they saw was not that 'special'. They felt that they did not get too much out of it...like so many who unfortunately 'want' to be there. She also felt that the workers were "unable to explain a coherent plan of salvation".
I let the workers know my opinion first. Then they just pretend to agree with me but I knew very well they didn’t believe that.
I feel that the "workers" are knowingly perpetuating a lie regarding William Irvine --either actively, or by omission. That is to say that the 2x2 ministers are knowingly advocating the denial of a fact of reality -- William Irvine. As denying reality is the root cause of most neurosis, I find this to be a serious fault in the 2x2 "workers." (I do not pretend that what I perceive as reality is THE objective reality. However, as multiple converging sources of evidence overwhelmingly confirm that William Irvine is the 2x2 founder, I do feel this is an objective fact of reality. I think the "workers" feel the same way -- thus the mass of "manufactured confusion" regarding the founding.)
Yeah, one minute these people [workers] are the "TRUTH" and the next they are ducking questions and giving a run around instead of a simple answer. Sometimes we do get simple answers from them, but they aren't really answers.
I know the suffering I went through when I left the meetings and I cannot imagine the suffering EX-workers must have gone through. Even if a worker leaves the work and continues on in the fellowship he or she must surely suffer. Is there any comfort (counseling?) for those who find themselves in this situation?
We do love the friends and workers. We do know that people everywhere are not perfect. We do not expect the 2x2 system to be without fault. Nor do we expect any system to be without fault. But we DO remember that the workers and friends found SO MUCH fault with all other churches for the very things that they do themselves. I have not found other churches to do this.They recognize that we are all human.
About HEAD WORKERS/OVERSEERS:
I'm not sure where we heard this... it might even have been in The
Secret Sect, The Forward Press or some other published material... we
have heard that at times, the new overseer of an area became the new
overseer because he simply grasped the position for himself and no one
else said anything about it.
I know we have heard that is how Tharold Sylvester came into "power"
in Washington... there was an opening (would it have been at Jack
Carroll's passing?) and Tharold just stepped into it.
It seems there are a lot of gatherings of 5 or 6 or more of the
"biggies" these days... I don't remember any of that happening years
ago... maybe because all our modern technology has made our world
smaller (not to mention the increased traveling of workers between
different areas and countries.) Now there has to be more effort to
"keep the unity" (or at least to keep that APPEARANCE of unity!)
Everyone is more aware of what's happening in other parts of the
country and the world... the discrepancies surface much more quickly
and easily.
I feel very sorry for workers who feel they must remain in the work because they would have no other alternative. Some of us EXES have "purposed" to pray especially for the head workers so that if and when they get honest and real they will have the courage to exit and speak out.
How could any of us have been so blind? The last convention I was with Willis Propp was brought by some Friends a great distance from his area by some folks I also met there. They said they were chosen to bring him (Which they considered a great honor) because they were the only ones who had a nice enough car! That is paraphrased but almost a direct quote. At that convention I was shocked by what I saw resulting in my own opinion of his arrogant aloofness having once known him to be a different man.
Never in my entire life of going to meeting have I heard anyone from another church, and definitely not a preacher, even given the benefit of the doubt. They were labeled as being in a false church, a so-called Christian (said with a sneer usually), a hireling, a false prophet--always NEGATIVE comments. Often these things were said when you never even knew anything more about the person than the fact they went to a church or that they never went to meeting.
Well, as you all know...if you disagree with a worker's message....TOUGH LUCK!! LIKE IT OR LUMP IT!!! In the 2x2's, there is no discussion...the worker's words are law. That's it.
An EX-Worker writes: "Comments made lately reinforce even more strongly my opinion that "the work" is a cult within a cult.... Just as it seems to all of us that the Christian community either does not or cannot empathize with ex-cult members, even here amongst ex-2x2'ers there appears difficulty understanding where ex-workers are coming from... Those who have experienced it and left it almost have to completely block it from their mind to cope, it appears to me...."
_______ wrote regarding a 1936 worker's sermon: 3. The "Clergy man" and other "big preachers" are obviously ministers of other denominations, or "false churches" in your understanding. They did not have these marks of a slain lamb, ie: they have not made sacrifices like the workers. Funny you should mention the sacrifice of the workers (which we all heard so much about in the "way") _______. I was just thinking about this today as I was racing the clock to get bills paid, grocery shop, go to work, prepare the meals, do the laundry, look after sewer backup at revenue house, collect rent from NSF check from another revenue house, visit mother-in-law, spend time with hubby and kids, do book work, etc. etc. I was thinking of the sacrifice workers make. I know it is said "The grass looks greener on the other side", and yes, I think that is true indeed. I wonder if the workers ever consider the sacrifice made by we, the common people who give our lives, also willingly and lovingly for our families and those we love. I mean our lives in that sometimes there is so much to do with just regular living that many of our personal interests are put on hold for many years and maybe for all of our lives. I was just wondering if the workers ever think of that. I know I never ever heard a sermon about it in the "way", but I have heard other clergymen encouraging such us along these lines. I don't think workers really understand what regular living is, and I don't think they can really appreciate what it's like. I could be wrong I suppose. Usually I try not to pass judgment if I've never been in that situation - I've never been a worker - so how do I know? A worker has never been a clergyman either, so how does he know whether or not that person has made a sacrifice? Perhaps it may not be the same one the worker made, but no less a sacrifice.
When the workers had someone from another church come to their meetings who claimed to be saved, they joked about having to get that person "unsaved" first before they could profess and follow Jesus. It was like they had to purge out everything first from the "false" churches.
I recall talking with one EX-worker who is now out of the fellowship as well. This person said that person's 2x2 home life was so terrible and said person had spent some time with the workers at preps as a teen. Person said he/she found such a pleasant atmosphere amongst the workers that person felt she/he could finally obtain peace/peacefulness by going into the work. Becoming a worker was this person's attempt to find a family that was not in constant turmoil.
I would like to think that most workers offered for the work because they felt they were being called by God to serve in a worker capacity.
I can talk openly and calmly about my beliefs now, but occasionally I do get very frustrated, giving my mother opportunity to point out my 'bad' spirit. It still amazes me that workers can scoff, scorn and sneer at me, slander ex-members etc, but any anger I show in return is "proof" of my ungodly state.
I feel there is a great chasm between the "friends" and the workers, primarily of the workers' doing. I find them unfeeling and uncaring in many ways, as well as woefully ignorant of Christian doctrine. At the same time, the great majority of the friends and quite a few of the workers are sincere, decent people who will take any enlightenment from any rational source, including this list, and grow and learn from it. Not a few seem to be rapidly coming to an understanding of these historical coverups, emotional and criminal abuses which have been also covered up and most significantly, the substitution of legalistic rules of behavior for true Christlike love.
We were to make ourselves patterns after the workers lives. Their entire lives were sacrificed and so should ours be.
Only Jesus is perfect, and only the Lord is to be worshipped, not the "workers".
It's the subtle ways of the workers and the sincere loving attitude they have that deceives people the most and keeps them in.
There's a saying amongst the 2x2s I've often heard--"once a worker, always a worker!" I'm not sure exactly what that's supposed to mean & I mean to give no offense here. But as a worker, you're rather in control of the group. You are looked up to, have children named after you, always welcomed with open arms into people's homes (at least on the surface), have a car to drive & your needs provided for--at least if you are in good standing within the group. However, I understand there is a hierarchy in the workers & those younger are sometimes treated VERY poorly by the older ones or if you're in a state of disapproval for whatever reason they've declared. I think for some workers--the position becomes a power trip & that's true in many 'exalted' positions. It must be extremely difficult for those who were once looked up to & revered so highly to find themselves in a state of disapproval. I've seen that myself especially when a man leaves the work to get married, or maybe doesn't leave FOR that reason but marries soon after. It's treated likea cardinal sin committed. From some of the stuff I've heard & read they're looked down on more for getting married than for child molesting, etc. I think it must be very difficult to change from a position of controlling others to being controlled. Again, I'm not trying to offend anyone, but I've found many ex-workers are very controlling even after they leave the work to their wives, children or just to other people. I think your description of a cult within a cult is probably quite accurate. …….I was speaking in very general term about the majority of workers I've seen. I've known many who were quiet, meek, humble, gracious, grateful & also who tried to do something for you because "you" were caring for them. I've also noticed that those kinds of workers weren't generally in the higher stations, i.e. head workers, overseers, etc.
Notice whether or not you are being encouraged to focus on Jesus or on the 2x2 way.
I find it so amazing that the workers do not appreciate their words being taped. At the church I attend EVERY service is taped for those who would like to obtain a copy of the sermon. Our pastor would be glad if someone pointed out his errors to him. He is dedicated to bringing truth to the flock. He recognizes his humanity and maintains a teachable spirit. How different from the workers, who are afraid their words would fall into the wrong hands. How in the world can the truth fall into the wrong hands????? Or if there is error one would desire correction, no?????
The workers' spin, just like so many put their spin on things to fit their agenda. Again, if you make up a church or a business or whatever - you get to make the rules. It's all pretty much like a kids' ball game. Remember those? One kid always had the baseball or basketball or football. He got to say who plays what. Don't like it? Fine, go find your own ball to play with, we didn't really want to play with you anyway ("He/She never had the right spirit anyway")!!
I feel very sorry for workers who feel they must remain in the work because they would have no other alternative. Some of us EXES have "purposed" to pray especially for the head workers so that if and when they get honest and real they will have the courage to exit and speak out. 10/96
12/96 There are now several EX 2x2 workers now out and some are speaking out on the List.
Remember a few days ago when ______and _____were talking about providing a home for workers should they decide to leave? Well, I know a man who is "out" and he told me that if "X" worker ever left he would offer him a job in his company. He, of course, will NOT suggest this to the worker directly but would be waiting in the wings to help him into employment should he decide to leave. There is help for our workers and if any are listening I'd just like them to know that we EXES would be willing to help them all we can. I feel I am speaking for more than just myself here.
It is a sad commentary on the workers to have to acknowledge that they will only tell the truth about the group's history when given no other alternative, but that seems to be the case.
Actually I wasn't quite so shocked to find out about Wm. Irvine as I was the other garbage that went on behind the scenes! Where is the leading from God if they are fighting among themselves?
Typically, I've not found the 2x2s to be very aware of true evil in our times. The workers generally portray evil as doing any of the taboos they consider "worldly." Very little of their preaching concerns what is truly evil in our day and time, and what we should really be watchful of. I can't help but notice how very much this would please Satan! Barking up the wrong tree allows evil to run rampant.
Oh yes! The LETTERHEAD! *That* carefully guarded little secret! It may be more common knowledge these days but back just a few years ago very few of the workers knew that the OVERSEERS had their very own letterhead. There's a copy of two of these letterheads in the back of The Secret Sect. The letterhead from Australia and New Zealand shown there is dated in 1928!
In Canada the "Christian Conventions" letterhead has been used at least since 1940--perhaps earlier. And we know by the letters signed in July 1996 by Willis Propp and Dale Shultz that "Christian Conventions" letterhead seems to be used, as required, when required, in our day and age.
I just received a copy of Willis' apology letter for having Incorporated in Alberta. His letter is addressed: TO WHOM IT MAY CONCERN. It is dated November 18, 1996. I see that Willis did NOT write THIS particular letter on his Christian Conventions stationery. But then why would he? He is apologizing to the Friends too and it wouldn't be good to further confuse them with THE NAME.
I never realized I was under so much pressure until I felt so free after the workers left for convention preparations! It really came as a surprise to me that I felt that way. I hadn't realized that I was stressed from them being around.
How many times has any of you known an elder to have the final say in a matter at meeting--usually he's not even aware of what is going on. There's a terrible veil of secrecy with workers accountable to no one except whoever happens to be at the head of workers. 1/97
Went last night to hear a talk by Dr Henry Schaeffer (American chemical scientist) on Creation and Evolution. Some of you may have heard of him, he is a committed Christian, and gives talks all over America. Anyway, persuaded my parents to come, which they did. Went into the lecture hall and sat down - guess who comes in and sits on the other side of the hall? The workers!!! Well, Mum and Dad smiled and waved, they smiled and waved, etc.
As soon as the talk was finished - Mum and Dad made their way out of the hall (immediately) to catch up with them and say hello. Well, those workers must have got out of there as fast as if the place had been on fire, because I found Mum and Dad standing outside all alone and a little bewildered - the workers had completely disappeared, not even pausing to say hello! I thought it was incredibly rude.
I can only ponder that they weren't keen on being seen there - and weren't expecting to be seen by any of the friends! I would love to discuss some of the talk with them. At the end of his talk, Dr Schaeffer put up the"essentials" or basics of the Christian faith -
1. Believing that Jesus Christ is the Almighty God, through whom all the heavens and the earth were created; and
2. That Jesus Christ was resurrected from the dead, His death on the cross being the complete atonement for our sins.
Ooohh, what I would have given to be sitting next to the workers when they read this! Dr Schaeffer went on to say that there are many of other 'non-essentials', such as form and place of worship, etc, that some people try to put up in the "essentials" list. :-).
Guess I'll have to invite them round to tea to get a chance to talk! 02/9
At one convention I attended I heard from the platform that the speaker appreciated seeing family pictures displayed in the homes of the saints...but how much more it meant to see pictures of the servants of God there instead. This may sound innocent, but perhaps this worker was not aware of the Power of Suggestion. In the true "spirit" of convention, the saints go for the purpose of growing spiritually and receiving instruction from the workers. So when something like this is mentioned, it is my guess that either the friends go home and replace their family pictures with pictures of the workers, or they go home and feel guilty because they refuse to do that, and have been unfaithful to God's messengers. Or they recognize that "God's true messengers" are just people too and make mistakes. But for their own salvation's sake they had better not ever bring the specific mistake up to anyone! 2/97
We aren't trying to prove that the 2x2 way is wrong because there was a founder. We want 2x2s to simply know that they have been lied to by most of the workers about there being a founder and to also realize that the workers aren't telling the truth about scripture either.
Their doctrine is false. But it usually takes a lifetime to figure that out and most professing people are so isolated from the truth of scripture and from other Christians that they never figure out what is wrong because the workers use words and phrases from the Bible in confusing ways.
Just because you knew about William Irvine doesn't mean that other 2x2s know about him. You ought to be able to talk about Irvine in meeting to others without getting into trouble and you ought to try it every chance you get and see what happens. Then try talking about Jesus Christ being the only Way to reach heaven rather than the workers and the 2x2 meetings in the home and see what happens. 2/97
To make a long story short, I left home after graduating high school and attended university (something that is discouraged for females, at least for non-traditional programs). I remember that once I became physically independent from my family (I moved over 1600 miles away), I started to examine and question my beliefs. I took a few classes in sociology which dealt with group dynamics and was shocked to realize the parallels between the 2x2's and cult worship (I find it ironic upon reflection to remember a worker's advice, that although she didn't approve of my going to university in the first place, that I should stay away from psychology and sociology because it was the "thinking of man"). Now I realize that the very workers who I had learned to love and respect as a child had and continue to openly deceive people. 2/97
ANYTHING we ever asked or talked to the workers about literally seemed to 'put the fear of God in us' when we were in the group. It was like we were put on the defensive before we even asked a question, no matter how innocent the question. I've wondered why that is--but I think it was because of past experiences. Perhaps it was also because of discussions we heard around the dinner table when workers were visiting. I've heard a few workers say things like 'they asked what was wrong with bowling--so we KNEW they had no understanding'. Meanwhile I'm sitting there at my own table thinking I've never understood what is wrong with bowling either--so I must not have any understanding either. Yet if I say this to the worker--I'll immediately be placed in that category AND maybe talked about at the NEXT dinner table in another home.
I think that fear of asking questions was put into us when we (who were raised in it) were small from just this sort of situation. (By the way the above conversation did really happen & I felt that way.) Yet given the above circumstances, I heard many times that the workers were closer to God than the saints, because they spent so much time praying and meditating. I usually felt like they had a private line while I was on a party line & one I didn't use as often as I needed to. Given that, I felt like the workers HAD the answers, but either they didn't feel it important to share with me, I wasn't intelligent or spiritual enough to understand their answers or God just didn't feel I was ready to comprehend these things yet.
I think when most of us could no longer deny our questions, we thought long & hard about WHO to ask. Some workers we just weren't close to, or we had asked a question of before & been turned somewhat away--yet how do we call a worker in another state or even another country to discuss something that we know is going to be very lengthy? This is the situation we found ourselves in. Yet when we asked questions that weren't complicated but were from our heart & something we just didn't understand or hadn't understood in our entire lives of being involved with the group--we were told something like Daryl was told by a brother worker who was quite a bit younger than he is--"You need to attend 500 gospel meetings"! That really leaves you with a peculiar taste in your mouth.
Well I've strayed from my original subject which by now I've forgotten. I guess the thing we need to do is to put 'closure' on this aspect of our lives. To be certain that we've examined every area of this so that we haven't missed anything. We want sometimes to be positive & maybe the only way we can accomplish this is to get some of these ridiculous answers like the one above.
I had the feeling several times when we discussed things with the workers--can't they just take the veil down & be honest? I poured my heart out about the way I felt, tried to tell honestly how difficult this was & I felt like they were looking through me and that I was being petty and childish & here I was bothering the busy workers by asking questions!
We also heard some things from them that we knew were not true statements and that did help me put closure on things. I feel for myself that there really is nothing further I can discuss with a worker because I don't think most of them have the 'authority' (for want of a better word) to make an individual decision or perhaps to even tell their honest opinion. That may be something that is somewhat beyond their control, at least I'd like to be able to think that it's more that than total dishonesty.
I also have found so few of them that can or will sit down in a non-confrontational manner (I share blame in my attitude too) and actually discuss things and at the end of the discussion feel like I've gained some understanding of the situation. All for now. 3/97
When confronted with anything other than unquestioning conformity, the workers frequently respond with condemnations which may range from outright hostility to the crass indifference of conditional love. And while some may be able to "handle the workers" techniques of control, dominance, and equivocation better than others, nobody should be required or requested to stand alone in the presence of such. The presence of an advocate who insists that you be treated with dignity and respect is invaluable. Moreover, the presence of someone who will insist on having your questions answered or your concerns acknowledged cannot be underestimated. I expect the "workers" understand these things very well, and so seek to avoid these situations whenever possible. 3/97
>>> Good points. It made me think of our pastor. If he were to pay a visit to anyone about anything, I feel quite certain he would NEVER object to another party being there if the visitee requested it. If he did have an objection, we would certainly be suspect of his motives for visiting.<<< 3/97
In my experience, I think without exception EVERY story about "the beginning" I've ever heard (for a individual or, in the case of multi-generational 2x2 families, for the "originators" in the family) begins with someone praying that God would SHOW THEM THE WAY... and then...these two men/two women came calling... ??? 3/97
Workers use the forewarning tactic to increase their credibility and that of the system they represent by minimizing the numbers who are leaving meetings by pointing to the verse: "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first..." 2 Thes 2:3. This ensures that SOME of the friends will not pay any attention to the facts given by any who have left, since they have been forewarned not to listen to any "disgruntled dissenters who are trying to discredit the truth with all their lies." This tactic is known in logic as a fallacy called "Poisoning the Well." 3/97
I don't think I need to tell many of you what happens to a young worker. Basically young workers are whipped into "further professing shape" to be molded into the image of what the perfect (even ROYAL seeming) worker is to appear to be! 3/97
At Dagmar convention one year a sister worker spoke about the "language of heaven." What I recall the most is her praise of all the workers present at the convention for using the "thee's and thou's" in prayer.
She made it quite clear than those words were proper for a professing person to use. She made it so clear, in fact, that thereafter if I heard anyone in meeting using "you and your" I immediately placed that person in a lower regard/a lower spiritual place.
Now, I'm embarrassed to have even thought that way, let alone consider myself righteous in that silly little regard! 3/97
Yes, I have hope for other workers. However, their "conversion" will be according to their reality. If they simply love the ministry and the whole system, they are going to keep on. And many in this category really do love God even as we [who have left the fellowship] do, in my opinion. Still, they are hooked to the system. This goes for the friends, too. 3/97
We heard from another ex-member a few weeks ago that a worker said, if they start questioning the ministry--we're in trouble!! Well folks, I think this is the position the workers find themselves in today--they're in trouble. Honesty just might be the best way to deal with all these problems. 3/97
In reference to: Question: Why does there have to be one main "Overseer" over the overseers?
*** Being from Canada, I also questioned this, as Taylor Wood is also the Overseer over the Eastern Provinces of Canada (Ontario eastward), having more authority than the individual overseers in each province.
I found this interesting as I thought Canada would have their own such person. Perhaps they are making use of the Free Trade Agreement <grin>.
Also, all the workers from Canada went down to Milford, New Hampshire about 3 or 4 years ago for a huge "workers only convention", of which he headed. If they were attempting to strengthen the 2x2 infrastructure, or come up with a cohesive way of "doing business", they failed.
Perhaps they should collaborate with the west more, as it seems that aside from the formal meetings structure, things are very relaxed there compared to the east. This started a lot of my questionings. with the underpinnings that if the spirit is the same, than the entire body of people, and what they feel is acceptable should be, as their leaders should be in agreement. This is not the case however, in my country anyway, therefore the "blame" for relaxed standards cannot be placed on individual unworthiness, but rather lack of consensus among leaders, as we are not just dealing with isolated cases, but rather 100s of people.
The photo of all the attendees of the Milford convention (about 150+) holds a sacred place on our living room wall at home.
Which leads me to the next point I wanted to make. The workers, in my opinion set themselves up as idols or gods before the people, instead of Jesus and His sacrifice, where the emphasis should be.
I remember at convention a few years ago, Harry Brownlee was the visiting worker and quite a "fan club" as he is a very eloquent and powerful speaker. But, it was something that he said that disturbed my little heart at that time: "...when we go in to people's homes, there is usually a piano to play the Lord's hymns, and usually that piano is used to display family photos of weddings, graduations etc. We need to de-emphasize and quit worshipping ‘events of this life.’ Make a personal commitment to yourself, that when you go home, you will remove those photos and instead place there a photo of the two men or two women that brought you the gospel, so that you will be reminded each and every day of your deliverance and salvation."
Personally, I would rather read between the pages of my Bible about my deliverance and salvation, not to mention my freedom from a system of lies and hypocrisies.
To add to the above, when I first started dating my boyfriend, I was bothered by the crosses that his mother had up in the home (only 2 little ones). I mentioned it to him at the time, and he tried to explain the significance of them to his family, in terms my little 2x2 mind could comprehend. Since then, we have visited a 2x2 home, and he was astonished at the "shrine" they had made to these "vagrant people" (in his words). The selling of workers photos at conventions is quite the little enterprise up here!
5/97
I believe a while back Mr. Propp received a copy of the letter he sent out to the friends "explaining" the incorporation in Alberta. Along with that letter he received several of the comments which were made on this list, blasting holes in his "reasoning." This was sent to him by one of the current "friends." How can that NOTcause him to think things through more thoroughly the next time he has reason to speak or write such a letter? (And how can it not cause him to see his own deceptiveness?) Will it make any major changes? Who can say... but it must make him aware that he is not invincible; that his words can be (and probably WILL be) challenged today by someone if he tries to equivocate and side-step issues. 6/97
The workers believe that believing in Jesus is not enough, one must also believe in them. The Bible says that whoever believes in Him shall be saved. Nothing more, nothing less. 6/97
On many occasions in dealing with workers, I found their 'proof texts' to be absolutely INVALID!! TOTALLY WRONG!! TOTALLY OUT OF CONTEXT!! 6/97
In our household worker worship was NEVER practiced. Though I can't think of a time my parents criticized a worker, I hadthe impression that working out issues was between us and God.6/97
Apparently a very old brother worker was visiting and mentioned that he had labored in France for many years. Curious, my father asked him if the friends in France ever drank wine as it was his impression that it was imbedded in their culture. "Oh no never once was I in a home where there was wine" was the response. My father was a bit bemused until the brother continued; "of course they drink a lot of sour grape juice, but never wine!" Apparently the difference is that wine is fortified ie what the rest of us call brandy, cognac, or spirits. But my father was a little blown away to say the least! Isn't it amazing how we can delude ourselves? ? ? 6/9
The head worker here is very keen on the friends using "thee" and "thine" when praying as he feels it is more respectful. Jesus however made no use of special pronouns when referring to God, and I think the use of archaic language in prayer only creates an artificial hindrance to true prayer, as people tend to do what I did, assemble prayers from a vocabulary of well-worn phrases.
The workers' knowledge of God must be very shallow if they think he is impressed by Elizabethan language.6/97
With workers around it always caused others to tone themselves down--to be more serious--to be a REAL drag! I always disliked it when we were invited someplace, only to arrive and discover the workers were there too. Put a REAL damper on the whole evening for me. 6/97
We've had a few workers say they knew what was in the books, but when pinned down found they hadn't read them. There probably are a few, however, who have read some of the books. 6/97
I still have fond memories of those two homeless women (Marion Crawford and Julie Lonseth) who were kind and loving towards me. I do not detest them in any way. I feel they too were/are deceived from their beginnings in the Way. I do, however, despise and even HATE the SYSTEM!! Sandi Gunther 6/97
>>Your expression of love, compassion and care for "workers", while HATING THE DECEIT, and actions of HIRELINGS parallels my emotions. 6/97<<
Believe me, we’ve known and come in contact with many who have or do worship the workers. Even idolized them. Some convention notes are totally concerned with: "I wonder if you really appreciate what God’s servants have done for you…." We also think there is a huge misplaced emphasis on the METHOD (the 2x2 ministry plus church in the home). God is a PROCEDURE to many of the friends and workers.
The workers are peddling a method. And if they have a serious prospect, they eventually get around in their gospel meetings to explaining or strongly implying that their method is God’s only true way.
I'm afraid I'm one who blames the workers for a lot--maybe not for professing, yet they kept at us til we did. I do blame them for all the abuse that we took from them because they were workers and their words and actions no matter what were o.k. We were told to take it and shut up--they were God's True Servants. Where thankfulness abounds--saved by grace not works.
P.S. I'm not picking at the ex workers on this list I admire your courage to make that break from the 2x2s, you were willing to see and understand that what was happening was not right. I want this hurt and anger to go away and be able to forgive and then forget. 6/97
The focus is so much on the workers, to obey them, their rules, their wishes, their advice, so eventually you are living to serve them and not the Lord. 6/97
There was a topic earlier of "brownie points", doing things to get in good with the workers. Glad to say also, like _____ mentioned, that was never anything I cared of doing. I had/have quite a few worker relatives which probably had something to do with the way I thought of the rest of the workers, more like family. We were never taught to uphold the workers, they were just supposed to fit in and be part of the family.
From my observation all my days I have seen many acts of what I would refer to as "getting in good with the workers." I don't know the motives of the people, that's true, but what it looks like, from what a person can learn from observation is that the more you look up to the workers, the more you make over them, cater to them, give them money, ask them for advice, and then follow it, etc., the more you get in return, i.e. meeting in your home, eldership, worker dinners, trusted with confidential information and whatever else.
I was at a convention a few years ago at Chelan, Washington. Willis Propp was there also. This was approximately 1992, or 1993. Letters were circulating to different people, workers were advising the people to throw them away, etc. So Willis is up there on the platform in his usual tone of voice and manner, to those of you that know him, telling the people "you have been accused of treating us workers too good, putting us up on pedestals, etc." "And I just want to tell you today that what you are doing is in line with scripture"..... He then went on to give verses of where it says to "obey those that have the rule over you, for they watch for your souls".
Well, I can't remember the other verses at this time, but that one verse alone was enough to get me going. To "have the rule over someone" I don't believe means to tell someone what to do, how to live, where to go, etc. That is what our conscience is for and for the Holy Spirit to lead, guide and direct us.
I don't know how many people listening to Willis that day were pleased that they put the workers on pedestals, were glad for the strokes Willis gave them in doing so. Or were there others like myself that disagreed with that, I'll never know. 6/97
I think the workers take away the yoke that Jesus gives so freely, otherwise why would we carry around these problems when He has promised to help us carry them? 6/97
In my observation, while workers do not think of themselves as infallible, they DO think of themselves collectively as infallible. They seem to think that if they can convince each other to believe the same thing, that makes it true. Many of our parents believed that all believers are to follow workers into any ditch they lead, so long as they are taught/instructed to do so. Somehow they think that though they know it is "wrong" only the workers will pay any consequences! 6/97
I have been around "the truth" long enough that I know how much of gossippers they are, and I believe that the workers are at the root of it, as they travel from house to house, telling what went on and what was said in the house before. I know this as a fact, as I've been there, watching for 22 years.
A lot of the young people today follow this way, because their parents do, and the workers tell them it is right. They have no understanding of the Bible, because the workers don't speak much from the Bible. They read a bit, then go off on some totally different wavelength, making their own analogies. They only believe that it is the only way, because that's the way they are brainwashed. I believe that all people are created equal, no matter of race, creed, color, etc. The workers say this too but they don't practice it, and I have seen many examples of many workers, who have let down their front when they feel comfortable. They are sometimes seen by me as the 2x2 face preachers.
The sister worker who was the older one having meetings called her the night of the gospel meeting to tell her they were testing the meeting and encouraged her that they felt she might like to profess. She didn't that night but did about a month or so later at convention. This sister worker gave the young professing people a lot more time and attention than she did the younger ones and those NOT professing. ____ has since said that she professed for all the wrong reasons and the main one was to gain favor with the workers. 7/97
I have learned by personal experience and knowledge that workers are both very deceived, and easily deceived. I have to admit I don't know how to cope with some of them any better than they know how to cope with me! Those who choose NOT to visit openly and honestly, who use insinuations and slander, who refuse truth and facts, and flee every attempt to establish them are a total enigma to me. 7/97
A month or so after my mother died in 1961, two sister workers came to town to have some gospel meetings, they came to my door to invite me to the meetings, as well as tell me, "My mother would not have had to suffer so much (from cancer) if I had not been so rebellious and had come back to the fold. After I mentally picked myself up from the floor, and in tears, I told them " I could not and would not believe that Jesus came to earth and died for only a handful of people on the earth". With that the sister workers backed out the door, with the comment "Well, there were only eight saved on the ark!!" 9/97
The biggest problem we had is they would not or could not answer our questions. Yet our parents said the workers were perfect. 9/97
Over thirty years ago, active workers, claiming to be "going in faith" received govt. "pensions". Some overseers objected to the practice, some did not. It was kept secret then, and if existing today, likely is now. I was forbidden to speak of it by an overseer in Europe, and one in the USA. 9/97
My mother and sister visited right after attending Olympia Convention--which they said was 'huge' this year. They had many, many unkind things to say about the internet. I wonder where that came from? ? ? 9/97
To the two workers who visited us, and questioned us constantly as to
whether we were drinking. One of whom made life so unbearable for me.
You preached a message of hell-fire, there was no grace, or evidence
of the love of God in your message. I pray for you constantly. I love you.
Should the Holy Spirit see it fit for you to read this post, may He deal with
you in mercy and grace, as He did with me, and may you get to know Jesus, who
He really is. That is my heartfelt desire and prayer for you,
In His abiding love,
Sheila. Martin. (Ontario) 9/97
Older workers seem to love teaching by innuendo. This is their method of preference, I believe, to preserve "plausible deny-ability." You know, "I never said THAT, when did I say THAT?" When the listener knows good and well that was what was being said, and when! If this type of instruction is accomplished skillfully enough, it can be inferred or even stated outright, that the point of their NON-SPEAK must have been "revealed" to somebody by God for they NEVER said any such thing! 9/97
We hear a lot of negativity on this list about workers, and much of it for good reasons to do with secrecy and deceit, illogical reasoning etc. But in some cases I feel that any workers lurking here and hearing bad things about them whatever they do will just throw up their hands and say "well, then, no man can do right in the eyes of these people!"
Some examples of double negativity (as I will call it) are...
"The workers came to see me when I left, they just wanted to harass me, and keep interfering with my life".
"The workers didn't come to see me when I left, they just didn't care".
People have been upset because the workers did come, and others upset because they didn't. Whichever way the workers decided to go, in a lot of cases they were damned if they did, and damned if they didn't! (As the saying goes). 9/97
A spiritual leader is one thing but a dictator is another and that is the difference I see between many workers and pastors I've met since leaving the group. 9/97
HO Boy, do I sure ever know what you mean by the plausible deny-ability and teaching by innuendo. Fine print in the workers manual line 103: "When they leave, deny everything they ever thought they were taught in the past and make 'em think they're losing their marbles!" 9/97
The workers spiritualize some things and take as literal some things. 9/97
One of many things I don't understand is how many times you would hear in meetings about not being a part of the world. I ask, "where do they think we live?" Many workers sure love to drive fine cars that are of this world and they really love staying at the more affluent homes that can afford them each a singular bedroom and bathroom. And you certainly have to be a part of the world to earn the big bucks it takes to provide these things for them. 9/97
How many of the Workers have been literally crucified? To equate them with Jesus is preposterous. Jesus gives us life, not the Workers. The savor of life is in Jesus, not in the Workers. 9/97
I have not seen where Jesus "taught" the 2x2 ministry. That he commanded His original disciples to go out this way into the places where He would later come, is clear. That He commanded this for all time, is not. To glorify the ministry of the 2x2s is dishonoring to God, IMO. I've seen more worship of the ministry than of Jesus. In fact, I was told after leaving that "we don't worship Jesus." No wonder, when the Workers are lifted up instead of Him. 9/97
We have only the record of Paul and possibly Barnabas offering the gospel without charge, and specifically to the Corinthians. 2 Cor 11:8 shows that Paul was supported by other churches. He just chose to not take the support of the Corinthian church. There were times when Paul worked to support himself. How many of the Workers earn a living and preach the Gospel without taking any money or gifts from anyone? 9/97
In 2Cor 11, there seems to be a situation were some false apostles were speaking against Paul because he preached the gospel of God freely (vs. 7). Paul showed where he was not doing anything wrong, but he didn't say that others were wrong to take money for preaching. (He had already written the Corinthians in 1Cor 9:12-14 that this was valid.) These false apostles were being deceitful in their efforts to discount Paul. Paul showed that he fulfilled the marks of an apostle in the later part of 2Cor 11 and through 12:12. IMO, the Workers deceitfully accuse other ministers and place themselves in the exact position as these false apostles. 9/97
I believe that workers have been subjected to the effects of the cultic aspects of this system more rigorously than most of the 'friends.' I feel compassion for those who believe so strongly that this is the only "way," and have given a big part of their life to promoting this doctrine which inserts the ministry into the limelight, and then suddenly are confronted with the possibility that the ministry is not the "way," but Jesus is the Way and through Him alone (the narrow gate) can one find eternal life. Having to search this subject and consider that one may have been wrong must be a most difficult task, and I applaud those who make an effort to check this out. I respect those ex-workers who have weathered this storm, and are bold to declare they were wrong. 9/97
Learning about all the history and what they covered up has made me angry. I’m also very sad that the workers lied to me. 9/97
As all are well aware, a central tenet of the 2x2s is the homeless itinerant ministry. Is this not a very misleading description?
As far as I a know, when workers are in areas with no friends, they usually rent apartments. In areas with friends, they can usually telephone 10-20 homes and announce that they will be staying for a number of days. While I do not wish to diminish the very real sacrifice that they make with regard to homes, I do not believe that their situation equates to ****homelessness*** in the more conventional or 1st century sense.
Perhaps, non-home-owning is a more accurate description, but this would also apply to many ministers in 'false churches'. 10/97
I feel sorry for the disillusioned - the workers and especially their following.
We lived the perfect worker way, we did whate'er the servants say;
Living like strangers here we'd roam: we'd worship Sunday in the home.
ch: The Testimony was the way; Apart from that we could not stray,
The workers told us this was truth, continued on from Jesus youth.
We loved the voice and blessed the hand that told us of the heav'nly land,
They have no home, no food to eat, no place to rest their weary feet.
Workers seemed merciful and kind: they said we're lost in sin and blind
And said the way was all that's right; our life should praise them day and
night.
Their word is strong: we stayed in fear, where'er we'd go, they're ever near.
They would control us and defend to keep us faithful to the end.
Scott December 28, 1997
While my husband and I were in the process of deciding the 2x2 was not for us and we were having difficulty taking that final step to stop going to meetings. We were helped make that final decision when the workers brought the new rule in that "if you were professing you couldn't keep company with a WORLDLY PERSON". Prior to this no such rule existed in this State and many hearty and good 2x2 recruits were converted through such contacts and formed faithful families.
We considered that if this was the "ONLY WAY", How could the workers turn some one away from worshipping in the "one true way" denying them a place in heaven? We didn't attend the meetings again after hearing about this rule. (Hey some good things come from bad rules) WE were free.
The history behind this NEW RULE being introduced here in Western Australia at that time 1973 is how I remember it.
We had vaguely heard about the BIG problems in Melbourne where Bill Carroll had set up house and had lady workers waiting on him. At least four at a time. Many whole churches were put out at during this period because they didn't agree with Bill Carroll’s WAY. Nor did many of the elder workers from around the world. Naturally there were big splits over there in Victoria. All hush hush of course. This is all mentioned in the book "The Secret Sect". Those churches that were excommunicated must have continued as eventually the split was resolved. The point that I am making here is that the workers who supported Bill Carroll were separated and sent to other parts of Australia. I know the worker who instigated this new rule here was a Bill Carroll supporter.
So here was another "NO RULES", RULE.
Talk about the preachers not taking the emblems. I don't think so. Even when one I know used to climb in the window of a professing girl’s room and got her pregnant. This same fellow was transferred from another state. Why? Girl problems. He preached right up till the time he was sprung. Not only that, his companion was the head worker. I wonder does this still go on today???? 1/99
Bye for now.
Free and Happy.