Years ago, my husband and I were in the midst of a terrible fight. (We had a very difficult marriage to begin with.) We were both in hysterics with our rage. I was afraid because we had lost control and didn't know what would happen next. I telephoned for the workers. Just as I hysterically asked the sister worker to come and help us, my husband grabbed the phone and stated to the worker that "I" needed help, but "HE" didn't! I grabbed the phone back, and crying now, pleaded with (sister worker) to come. Understandably, she was confused and upset too. She said angrily, "I think the two of you need a Doctor." (She was probably right!!) But, at the time, I was surprised by her answer. "Pardon me?" I responded. She repeated herself and hung up on me. I felt completely devastated! If the workers can't help, who can? She did call back about 2 hours later to see if everything had quieted down.

On the other hand, about 1 1/2 years later, we were in a similar predicament. The difference though, was that I had come to know Jesus and His saving truth and grace. Again I felt the need for intervention. This time I called our Pastor. "Please come and help us, Pastor _____...we are in the midst of a huge quarrel and can't seem to resolve it."

"_____, tonight I am the one leading the evening Bible Study at the church....so it may take me a few minutes to find a replacement, but I'll be there as soon as I can." I could hardly believe he would make those kinds of arrangements just to come and speak with us, but he arrived about 20 minutes later. He spent about an hour with us...counseling and praying. I felt terrible to have caused so much trouble, but I was so grateful for his help.

May I share just one more comparison? From that meeting with Pastor _____ we learned something else. I can't say we have always followed his advice, but when we have it has worked 100% of the time. One other time we were in the midst of an argument and I just said, "____, we don't really want to be doing this. We want things to work out. Let's stop right here, lower our voices, and pray. God will help us. Satan desires to tear us down, but God wants to build us up." So, I knelt right there on the kitchen floor, ___ followed suit...we prayed together...tears streaming down our faces. We became completely surrounded by the warmth and presence of God. Our differences disappeared! We embraced...it was over!

Now, for those of you who are wondering...___ and I did do other things besides fighting! Today we are 26 years married and happy together. We plan on spending the rest of our lives together loving the Lord. 9/97

Personally I never had a worker as a counselor. There was a time, (after
I had started going to church) that a professing family member was
having some real problems. When I asked if they had talked to the
workers about it, I got a very emphatic NO. This person did not want to
trouble the workers with their problem. I don't know if they did not
feel the problem was important enough, did not want the workers involved
because it was too personal, or what. But I remember thinking at the
time that the workers were spiritual leaders, and this person didn't
feel they could go to them for support and comfort? It bothered me then,
and it really bothers me now. How many times have I just dropped into my
pastor's office for advice, counseling, support, share good news? Too
many times to count.   9/97  

Workers as counselors? The question is a forgone conclusion. Universally so bad as to be off the scale. I suppose I could elaborate on all the reasons why, but the whole basis of the 2x2 system precludes any world view that allows for even considering ones humanity and emotional health. The linchpin people in a system that promotes such dysfunction cannot function as repairers of that emotional damage. That's like using a wrecking ball to try to build a house. 9/97

The workers helped me by listening to me when I was very upset about my parent’s health. No counseling; just listened. That was helpful though. Unfortunately in another situation when I asked for moral/spiritual advice regarding passive euthanasia and the decision I was facing with my dying parent I was completely let down. At first I felt total support/understanding and a firm "it is OK" from [the worker] until I asked him if it was HIS blood relative in the same situation, how would he view it. He no longer knew what to say! Bottom line: he didn’t have any spiritual advice that was credible! Our conversation left me with more concerns and I felt no help in the moral situation in front of me. 9/97

I would like to chime in my two cents worth on the subject of workers as counselors. I think that in many regards they are inadequate. Many of the friends run to them for answers on relationship, financial, child-rearing issues- when they have, if at best, little knowledge of any of the topics described. Has a worker ever been married? Then what giveshim/her liberty to tell a couple how to resolve problems when they know nothing of marriage? Many workers are quite opinionated on the subject of child discipline (e.g. no little toys for them to play with in meeting). I repeat- has a worker ever had a child? Perhaps they have many suggestions that work in theory, but are not really applicable in real life situations.

The thing that distresses me the most- and has been previously mentioned, is that when friends turn to the workers regarding things like sexual assault, fraud, etc, the usual advice given is that of "forgiveness" and "sweeping it under the rug", when these things should be (and as God instructs) punishable by law. The secrecy is immoral, incorrect, and validates the actions of the guilty party.

The workers are quick to tell those in need of help to stay away from conventional counseling services- that they are just the ideas of man.This further reinforces dependence on the workers for everything- both spiritual and natural guidance.

Why doesn't the average "believer" recognize that the workers are only human, exist in a sheltered environment where everything is provided and have no concept of what "real life" for the average person is about? Are these people equipped to give advice? 9/97

I can't even imagine having the workers counsel me or
my family!!  We hid all the problems from them just
as we did the rest of the world - Heaven forbid that
we weren't perfect!!!  Now that I have been thru
counseling and understand the role of a counselor, I
am really glad I didn't!!!  Helping someone in
distress requires sensitivity, objectivity, and a
very delicate touch.  I'm sure some workers have these
qualities, but I didn't meet many of them, and the ones
I did meet were all younger ones who wouldn't have
been allowed to counsel anyone.  From my experience,
the older they got the harder they got..... 9/97 

This has ALWAYS been one of my main gripes about the workers.  They have 
NO RIGHT to try to give advice to ANYONE regarding these issues...if they ARE
asked, they NEED to refer the person to a professional who is equipped to
deal with the problem.

I remember being VERY angry when I heard that my mother asked the workers
about her divorce.  I remember saying ....."what on EARTH do the workers know
about marital problems???  Who are THEY to be telling you what to do??"
 Well, it turns out that she just wanted to know what the bible said about
divorce...invariably this meant, of course, what do the "friends" do regarding 
this problem.

I know of people who are in the "truth" and are in desperate need of
counseling....REAL counseling....and just do not feel they should go to one.
This is another facet of "truth" that makes me SO angry.  These people are
SUFFERING...is this "suffering for sake of the 'gospel'?  No...first of all,
this "truth" is NOT the gospel of Jesus Christ...and serious problems like
these are NOT to be regarded as something to be "denied" for the 'sake of the
gospel'...this is just another example of the 'friends' pushing things under
the rug...denying that there are problems.

Sorry to sound so angry,
9/97  

I haven't read all the posts on counseling but thought some would be interested to know that a few years ago there was an incident in a neighboring field which involved a professing man who was molesting children. Four of the workers from adjacent fields made an appointment with a counselor who specializes in Sexually Deviant Behavior and went to him to learn about how they could best help this man and how they could best protect the folks in their fields. I was glad to hear of their open-mindedness.... Also marriage counseling was recommended by the workers to a professing couple I know very well when they were having difficulties. My husband's aunt, who is in the work in Japan, is also a believer in outside counseling. 9/97

A professing friend went to the workers for help and to tell them that he
had a drinking problem. Their remedy - stop going to the fellowship
meetings, continue to come to the Gospel meetings, and profess again.

Also, my husband and I asked the workers to pray for us because we were
having problems in our marriage. Their reply, "We are not Pentecostals, we
do not pray for people." That was the response to our cry for help and the
extent of our 'counseling' session.  9/97 

The workers lack formal training when it comes to counseling others. And they should be referring some of the friends to professionals. But do they do it? Apparently some have. They are to be commended for this. For the sake of the workers and the friends the workers should be receiving formal training on how to handle the situations they come up against. 9/97

The one time I actually had quite a few worker visits was when I was having
huge problems with my husband.  The worker involved probably saved my life.
I think I would have killed myself.  It was beginning to involve my kids,
and I didn't know what to do.  She helped me decide to kick my husband out.
She was there for me throughout that ordeal and I really appreciated her.

I also know my mom and dad have had a few little pieces of advice they've
gotten from workers and have acted on, and some that they didn't agree with
and did not act on. 

On the other hand, a lot of the workers knew when I was having problems with
my eldest son, and I got no advice at all.  I used to wish I belonged to a
regular church, so I could talk to a counselor or pastor or whatever and get
some good, knowledgeable advice.   10/97 

There's another concern I have regarding the issue of sexual abuse
within the group... that is in the lack of training the young workers
receive regarding the basic laws of the land, the intricacies and
delicacies of living (as a "leader" in the group) in such close
proximity with members of the opposite sex (and even being put in the
position, at times, of being their "counselors.")  Pastors in other
churches, teachers in the school system... basically ANYONE working with
children in our society gets this sort of training.  The training is for
the CHILD-WORKER'S protection, as well as for the protection of the
children involved.  It is my understanding that in our country (and, I
expect in many others as well) this training is MANDATORY in such
organizations.
	The leaders of this group have certainly seen enough abuse and other
sexual deviancy surface among different workers and elders in the group
to know full well that a "call to the ministry" or "the mantle of
eldership" is no proof against a person ever falling into such sin. 
Therefore, I believe the lack of training is unconscionable!
                  This practice of NO TRAINING leaves those young
workers (often raised in very protected environments) as "exposed" as
sitting ducks!  They have NO idea of the need for protecting themselves
against the possibility of false accusations which could destroy their
ministry (and wreak havoc on their lives for years to come, as well.) 
They receive NO training on the methods which they should employ to
protect themselves from such false accusations or from allowing
unhealthy relationships to develop.  THIS IS WRONG!!  A little training
can go a long way to prevent either false accusations of wrongful
behavior OR actual sexual abuse of children.  People HAVE been hurt by
this lack of training.  As long as the lack continues, people will
continue to be hurt... something must be done!!  This NEED should NOT be
ignored any longer by the group!!
	What ARE the laws of the land, I wonder?  The reason for this group's
"ministers" to receive this training is perhaps greater than in most any
other religious group because the CELIBATE ministers in the group
actually live WITH the families in the group.  Would the governments of
the different countries be concerned about this lack of training in this
group if it was to come to light?  Is the group even in non-compliance
to specific laws by failing to provide this training!?
2/98

I realized as a young teenager that I would NEVER go to the workers for counseling, guess I just didn't trust them, after listening to my family talk about new converts going to them regarding wedding rings and birth control etc. I just felt that if I REALLY wanted to know how God felt about anything I would just go to Him and I just somehow knew He would tell me. This has been true for me for the 44 years that I have professed. To this day I still do not take my troubles to the workers even tho I have not been to meeting for over a year, some have kindly said that If I needed to talk that they were available. I just as kindly put them off. It is still a no. 3/98