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God made me the first head of the family. He did the calling by me and now these past seven years He is doing the choosing, for many are called, few chosen. - William Irvine August 17, 1921
We don't deny it when asked if historical account of our founding was true. - Tharold Sylvester, Interview - Skagit (Washington) Herald, August 18, 1983
We are not following some way founded in the early 1900s but it goes clear back to Christ. - Tharold Sylvester, November 16, 1983
Irish feet have touched the soil of every continent, bringing the gospel. - Willis Propp, Silverdale Convention 1981
WE GET SAVED BY GETTING IN; WE KEEP SAVED BY FITTING IN. - Carson Cowan, Saginaw, Oregon, 1969
God's servants are interpreters, interpreting God's word into things they can understand. - Walter Burkenshaw, Glen Valley, August 15, 1988
God's servants are the understanding Authority of the word of God. - Willis Propp, Olympia Washington Convention, August 26, 1979
If it could be proven to me in black and white that this church was started by a man I would never preach another word. - Harry Brownlee in a Gospel Meeting
Faith cometh by hearing, not reading. No one can receive salvation simply by reading the Bible. - Bruce Waddell, Glen Valley Convention, August 4, 1988
I don't know if it was at convention or special meeting, but one year we were told in no uncertain terms that we had an APPOINTMENT with God every Sunday morning and every Wednesday evening. ...and we were told we were not to miss the APPOINTMENTS!! This was from worker Sydney Holt. (I remember thinking that I hadn't ever read anything in the Bible about Wednesday night Bible Study! :-) Just another rule!!) 14 Aug 2000 Anon
In the early 90's Arnold Brown spoke from the platform in Ohio about 'hate mail.' He referred to "enemies of Truth" and stated that those who did NOT receive any hate mail were better off. He referred to a mailing address in Oregon and the book THE SECRET SECT. Arnold said that those that write "bad things about God's people know better".
I heard Howard Mooney speak several times during my childhood and
adulthood and always enjoyed it. He was a charismatic and
articulate man with a love for people and preaching. I didn't know
him personally, just as one of the audience, but I remember what
a stir he created at Casa Grande convention 20 or so years ago
when he spoke about grace. He called it God's unmerited favor
and said there was nothing we could do to deserve it. This spoke
to my anxious heart because most of the other sermons that were
preached that day left me with a vague feeling of unease, as if I
needed to be doing so much more than I was doing to earn God's
favor and increase the possibility that he might allow me into
His heaven. I was happy to hear of this grace Howard preached
because it was the first time I had heard it spoken of in my
lifetime in The Truth. Prior to this the messages about grace had
defined it as "the opportunity to earn your way to heaven."
Howard's message raised some questions in my mind however that
never went away. I mulled over what he said about grace and knew
it was true because I looked in my Bible and found it so. Why
then, I thought, are we in The Truth the only recipients of this
grace? Why was I told at every convention and gospel meeting that
my salvation depended not on grace but on something else. I heard
it preached over and over that the foundation for salvation was
meeting in the home and workers going 2x2, without a home. I was
told over and over that those two things meant following Jesus
and following Jesus gave me a chance to go to heaven. The problem
was, I became more and more confused because I could not find
those criteria for salvation anywhere in scripture.
Then I found Romans 10:9-13 "That if you confess with your mouth,
"Jesus is Lord", and believe in your heart that God raised him
from the dead YOU WILL BE SAVED. For it is with your heart that
you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you
confess and are saved. As the Scripture says, anyone who trusts
in him will never be put to shame. For there is no difference
between Jew and Gentile-the same Lord is Lord of all and richly
blesses all who call on him, for everyone who calls on the name
of the Lord will be saved." That was it for me, I realized I
could either believe God or believe men and I chose, and continue
to choose thankfully and joyfully, God.
- Name Withheld. Now walking happily with Jesus. June 2000
Then there was the guy who wore a beard off and on because of sensitive skin that made shaving difficult. One year he chose to shave it off half-way through convention. Arriving on the convention grounds that morning he was enthusiastically greeted by one of the women workers who said, "Oh, ______, isn't it wonderful what the Spirit of God can move us to do!!?!" JC 6/00
During the afternoon Special Meeting on March 12, 2000 in Travelers Rest, South Carolina (USA), Clinton Goff (SC head worker) told a group of about 150 friends that he realized that some had to use computers in their business, but that it was not good to use otherwise. He said the Internet had some very bad sites and people needed to stay out of the chatrooms, too. His next statement was that meeting notes were not to be sent via e-mail because they "might get into the wrong hands." Naturally, it was assumed that he was talking about 2x2 websites and chatrooms as being the BAD places - he did not refer to porn sites, or other places where much sin prevails etc. but did mention meeting notes immediately. He said if people had good notes, the place to share them was in the meeting.
As a visitor in this meeting, I certainly wondered if Clinton Goff was totally unaware of the 2x2 professing websites, professing chatroom (mostly for friends and workers although ex-2x2s go there too), and the Truth and BibleInterested e-mail lists for professing friends. It made me want to give him the links so he could visit. I also wondered WHY meeting notes would be harmful in "the wrong hands". If they are BREAD and TRUTH, it looks like they would BLESS whoever read them. It appears that 2x2 evangelism these days is more centered on SAVING themselves from criticism than SAVING the lost. Jesus said "whosoever will" believe shall be saved. (John 3:16) Mar 14/00
In the spring of '89 Jack Price was speaking at an afternoon Gospel Meeting in Virden, Manitoba. He used a scare tactic when telling about a young man who wanted to leave the Truth "just for a little while-just for a little while." Jack implied that the young man wanted a taste of the world. So he left the "Truth" and within a year that young fellow was killed in a car accident. 30 January 2000 Scott Hazelwood
I remember Harry Brownlee speaking at Saginaw Convention. He stressed the point that you could know if you're saved if you have love for the brethren. I'm not sure what he was trying to convey, but the wife of a local elder was thrilled to hear his sermon. She could now believe she was saved. The verse he spoke from says: By this shall ALL MEN know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another. Our love for others may cause others to think we are Christians, but this is not a verse to assure us of our salvation. Our salvation is vested in what Christ has done for us and our reliance upon Him. I would hate to think that my salvation depended upon my loving others, because even though I want to do that, I fall short of perfection in this. January 3, 2000 Joan Daniel
Are you aware Wm Irvine, THE founder himself, told Alfred Magowan, one of his early workers, in person in Jerusalem (after Irvine had made his exit from the group) that "IT WAS ALL A GREAT EXPERIMENT" ????? Cherie
Last Sunday, January 2nd, 2000, this is what Jim Price, head overseer of New Mexico, said at the Clayton, New Mexico special meeting: "Workers <ARE> ORDAINED by God - 'False religions are ordained by men only, they only have what the organization has."
Steve Pierson from California also said: "This WAY has NO FOUNDER, ONLY FINDERS." 7 January 2000 Cheryle Winberg
In a convention some years ago a very senior worker, Andrew Abernathy, preached that the bible spoke about the false ways. He said the scriptures referred to Dumb Dogs. He then went on to say that many worldly preachers used the initials DD [Doctor of Divinity] after their names! He said that those who didn't were just CATS. (In retrospect he could have been talking about some sister workers!) The crowd (over 1200) went wild. This was the greatest thing they had ever heard. It was the major topic of conversation over stew that day. It was later picked up by several workers for use in gospel meetings! Jan 7/00 Leigh Townsend
Another illustration he was fond of using to describe "false churches" was the Pool of Bethesda - stale, stagnant, slimey, dirty old pool! Remember that one, Leigh? Jeanie Dudley Jan 8, 2000
"The Pharisees had their own doctrine, their leaven. There is only one right doctrine, one right standard and that is the standard of Jesus. If someone tells you of different levels of truth, its a lie, don't listen." Ken Pagington, September 22, 1996 Durban.
"It is far better to wait and let people see for themselves and if they never see for themselves we will be better off without them…………..Jesus is not now on earth to open the book for people, as He did for His disciples of old, when their hearts burned within them as they listened, but He does it through those who go forth to represent Him and with the same marks in their lives. He says on the judgement Matt.25 "inasmuch as ye did it unto one of the least of these ye did it unto me." They had represented Him and had the same marks in their lives. And I am sure that the devil is anxious to destroy these marks, as he knows then that the book of God would remained sealed. I like the verse which says no one in heaven or earth or under the earth could open this book or see therein, and surely it is still something to weep over, as John did when it is so. People sometimes say to us, "Has God only one way?" but how clearly we can see it here, that there was only one way and that was by sacrifice in the first place of His Son, and now through Him in those He sends forth to preach and represent Him on earth. I hope the Lord will help you both and fit you for His service in whatever your strength can afford, and if you can't be bullocks make up your minds to be good sheep. God will show you later and will still very gladly do all we can."
My husband and I met with workers many times before we left for thepurpose of working toward a solution.
When asked about the history of the group and about Wm. Irvine, Barry Barkley, then overseer of Indiana, stated that he knew nothing before 1950 (when he first began going to meetings). He also made a rather snide remark about this 'questioning generation' -- like asking questions was something weshould be ashamed of.
We asked Jeff Thayer, a worker in our field, after several hours of discussion about doctrinal issues and what the 2x2s actually believed about certain things; to write down what the things Jesus said to do. I said we will write down the things that we feel Jesus said to do and then compare the two.He absolutely refused saying "no, it might get in the wrong hands." I said"Jeff, you can tear yours up in little pieces or take your paper with you "but he emphatically refused to do so. (Isn't it a good thing God didn't ask the workers to write the Bible--because using that logic they would be afraid someone might read it!! ) Jeff then went on to tell me that the papers, exit letters, etc. that I had all needed to be burned. He then went on to compare that to a group of people in the Bible who were dealing with witchcraft and they burned those things realizing that contradicted their belief in God. When I told him that no, what those folks were doing was with witchcraft, he told me the stuff I had in my possession was JUST as bad. Joetta Heiser 24 July 1999
VISIT WITH ELDON KENDREW AND KEVIN COWAN in home of Mitchell’s Sunday, June 4, 1995: Quoting Eldon: "We have to remember that Satan uses these little insignificant issues to get our eyes off our main view. We have to keep our eyes on the goal. I'm glad that we had this talk. I feel like it has been really good for you. There was no reason to tell you! Why would we tell you something like that? It is a matter of faith. (re: finances and trust accounts) Just keep working over your problems and when you get them worked out we have every hope that you will be back with us sharing in the fellowship and joy and with that love and have that twinkle in your eyes once again. We have to keep our spirits right and not get caught up in little issues and problems. ...the workers and the meetings are the fruits following a right spirit... (Yieks! that's a good one!) ^ ^ ^ ^ Of course there will tend to be little skirmishes and problems within the church. There always have been and always will be. Just look at Revelations and see how each little church had to have its problems addressed. ( I don't see this as an excuse for putting down questioning of why things are done as they are, etc) ...it's like a seed. No, better yet, it's like your great-grandmother's recipe. I know you like to bake and can follow this. You are looking thru your great-grandmother's recipe box and you find a recipe for what you think is a cake that she used to always make that was just wonderful and you wonder, "Is this the one?" So you make it and YES! It tastes just exactly the same! It doesn't matter if the recipe has been lost in the box for years and years; you know that it is the recipe for the same cake because it tastes the same. Look at it like this. I have no idea who my great-great-grandfather was, but I know that he had to exist, because here I am today. We know how life begets life and it is the same spiritually. I do not believe in some form of apostolic succession, that would be like the Catholic church people might build their faith on that, but I would like to believe that the friends and ministry did come down through history that way. ...a group could have a ministry going out two and two and also have meetings in the homes, but unless they also have the spirit of God they would still lose out. Just because people have those things (ministry and meetings) doesn't mean that they have the spirit of God or salvation ... if people have the spirit of God the spirit would lead them to have meetings in the home and a ministry going out two an two, and that those things would evidence that the spirit is there..." John & Shawna Mitchell
Harold Hilton stated at convention, that: "Professing people who marry "worldly" people are just throwing their children’s lives away." 1996
Having heard this worker tell us how he dealt with the questions of "outsiders" made me think he figured that one day the workers would say something in meetings that would reveal to us that this was the "only way." (He had told us a year or so earlier that he just agreed with whatever "outsiders" believed until he got them into gospel meetings and then he socked it to them.) 9/97 Joan Daniel
At a recent Idaho convention Dan Hilton was reported to have said from the platform that "this way OF PREACHING goes back to Jesus."
This is a modification of the fable he usually tells--he added "of preaching." 9/97 Cherie K
We went to convention and at testimony time we noticed the lack of joy and how depressed (or oppressed) most of them were as they testified. The overseer worker noticed it too and after testimony time he got up and scolded them all for not having joy and said, "If you don't have joy, try a little more sacrifice". I suddenly got that sort of "knot" in my stomach and I gave my wife the elbow and whispered, "Try worshipping God". I wanted to stand up and SHOUT it but I managed to stay in control. Later the same worker said in his sermon, "See all you people, where would you be today if WE hadn't come with the gospel". Tom S
Soon after I left the group worker Mildred A. said to me in a very "upitty" tone: "Well! I guess you just never got the revelation!" Sandi Gunther
I heard an older brother worker say "Jesus will save us IF we are willing for the conditions; if we are willing to make the sacrifice to be worthy of salvation." I have also heard workers say that there is salvation only through hearing the gospel from the workers. From the book REFLECTIONS
I remember a worker talking about the fellowship when he compared it to Jesus' seamless garment they cast lots for at the foot of the cross. He said that the fellowship was the same way. No seams. He is right about that. It is more like grand canyons!!!!! Iwrote him to point out some seams he might want to be aware of. I got no reply. 11/97 Dale Knott
"My first convention was in 1907 at Crocknacrieve. I was not professing, but a little boy..." That was from Willie Brown in notes from 1956. Hummmm....Interesting! 10/97 Rosalie Armstrong
When Everett Swanson came to our home with first year worker Steve Watts, again we were still desperately hoping that reason would prevail. It was only then that we learned that they not only didn’t believe the Biblical account of who Jesus was, but what we had suspected and dreaded since hearing it mentioned by a few, was stated loud and clear as Everett reaffirmed their teachings.
He stated that IT WAS A REQUIREMTN THAT: 1.) EVERYONE MUST HEAR THE GOSPEL FROM A WORKER TO BE SAVED; 2.) ONE MUST BELIEVE IN THIS PARTICULAR MINISTRY, ONLY, TO BE SAVED; and 3.) YOU MUST MEET IN HOMES TO BE SAVED. From the book REFLECTIONS
At one of my first conventions, after I professed, a worker spoke from the platform that not all in that shed were going to be in heaven and that it was possible that only 10% in that shed would be actually going to heaven!!! Such hope! Ten percent?!!!
Years later when I quit professing I bumped into a young "B&R " woman and of course, she could see by my hair that I was no longer professing. She had also dropped out, likely for her 3rd or 4th time at that point. I told her "You know, ____, I never did believe that the WAY was the ONLY way!" She said, "Well, I do believe it Sandi but the workers say not even all the friends are going to heaven so what's the point of trying?!" Sandi
Our thinking builds upon some foundation. I received a letter from Jay Wicks, worker, in which he spoke of the danger of building on sand. The idea was that other religions were built on particles of the "rock," but the 2x2s were built on the "rock." I knew the Scripture he referenced was referring to building upon Jesus, and my deep desire was to be founded upon Him. I could readily agree there were many religions built on sand from reading their written beliefs, but the 2x2s weren't so open in declaring what they believed. It took a while to realize that the foundation Jay was telling me about and upon which the 2x2s rest is "the church in the home" and "the ministers without a home." 9/97 Joan Daniel
Attended a funeral where the older worker told everyone that only those in the kingdom will have good memories in eternity, and the rest of us not in the kingdom will be plagued with every bad memory we ever had. 1/97 Dennis Jacobsen
It was said in our convention at Almonte that "The least worker is greater than the greatest saint." 11/97 Sheila Martin
A WORKER'S RESPONSE: > I do so wish and pray that you would simply come to the meetings and listen with the understanding of your heart and not your mind.<
[Ooooooh! Don't we all love this one!?!] I listened "with my heart" for 36 years... regular attendance of ALL meetings (fellowship and gospel) EVERY week (unless truly sick) for most of that time... not to mention several special meetings every year and two or more conventions a year. If I didn't "get it" in all that time, perhaps it's because there was nothing to get!? Of course, GOD DOES want us to use our minds. He says, "My people are destroyed from lack of knowledge." "... because you have ignored the law of God [His written word!], I also will ignore your children." "A people without understanding will come to ruin." [Thanks BSF!!] And Jesus told the Pharisees that they were in error because they did not know the Scriptures. 2/97 Connie Jacobsen
I often heard workers and saints speak disparagingly about a "false religion" or "church people" who were "trinitarians." At gospel meetings with "unsaved" people present, they would say that the idea of the trinity was unscriptural, something dreamed up by men who had strayed far from the true way. 3/98 Marti Knight
While I was a young worker with Hugo Johnson in Sweden, Donovan Peterson expressed a desire to make a home visit to the USA after some 7-8 years in the country. This highly offended my companion (the overseer of Sweden at the time) who said to me in a very disapproving manner...."young Peterson..." (age 35 or so -- dj) "...is pressing to get a trip home to the USA. When I was a younger worker, we were taught to NEVER express what we wanted to do, and that is what I believe younger workers ought to learn today." Dennis Jacobsen 8/98
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "We have heard [worker] Frank Tyson’s "MUST" sermon many times. We, and our children, could repeat many of the phrases he used in those [sermons] on the several times he gave that talk. HOWEVER, I used to wonder, at the conclusion of his talks, "Frank, I know the Bible says, and I believe, we must be born again, BUT, please tell me how!" His talk never told of how to become a child of God - a new creature in Him - except by implication, to join this "Way" and as a part of this group, there would be some connection to being born again. It was just one of the many "sermons" in which I wanted to raise my hand and say, "Yes, yes, I heard what you said, but please, tell me what you mean!" Frank taught/said/believed: n "Professing" ladies who wore red colored clothes were advertising as harlots (whores) n Boy's hair had to be cut SHORT (above the ears) to qualify for baptism n "Professing" women could not wear shoes with open toes or strap heels n He spoke derogatorily of "niggers" (his word) n During his reign, he "allowed" men and women to sit together in convention meetings and while eating. (Frank died in the early 1980s.) Larry & Bonnie
Irving Ross said: "It’s wonderful that, that is the promise, like we were hearing, that was given of the Holy Spirit. Spirit of Truth as it is called in some places. Called the Holy ghost, called the comforter. Several times Jesus spoke to it. He spoke about it as the Spirit of Truth. He said it would lead and guide us into all truth. " When I was in the 2x2s, I thought the Holy Spirit was an IT just like Irving Ross says here. Today, I believe the biblical revelation that the Holy Spirit is a HE. 11/97 Roger Stip
I never knew Tom Clarke though I had often heard his name. He was never in our field while we were going to meeting. I do know, that he was one of the few or maybe the only one -- who did say this group started in Ireland with Wm. Irvine. He didn't try to deny that or take off on a tangent like we've heard others. I had respect for his honesty at least on that issue though I never knew him. BTW, he died about 2 years ago here in Indiana. 11/97 Joetta
In my old notes, I see that Dan Hilton (1964) was speaking about televisions. He wouldn't baptize anyone who had a television. He said people should, "Bring forth fruits worthy of repentance" before they were baptized. He further said that "People led by the spirit of God get these idols out, and usually without being told." (hint, hint...)
Dan Hilton was really hitting all the bases in this sermon. He speaks against:
Marrying outsiders
Misuse of the telephone
Content of TV shows
Shady business deals
Immodesty of dress
Sunday becoming a "fun day"
Commercial sports
Over socializing (among the friends!)
Fancy weddings and wedding dresses
Rosalie A
A year after I was born [1933], my mother was told to stop wearing her wedding ring. The worker (George Walker) said she no longer needed it because she had a baby and therefore did not need to prove that she was married! Andrew Abernathy said from the platform at Almont Convention that he watched people coming out of a worldly church and many of the women were wearing pant suits which proved they were unsasved. Three years ago [1996], in Montreal, Quebec, Canada, Marlene Greer, the older sister worker, said the girls should not wear calf length dresses - too sexy - too much of a temptation to the boys. Wine is wrong - the overseer in Quebec, Jimmy Patrick, (who surely would have known William Irvine) said Jesus did not turn the water into wine but into grape juice. Horace Cullwick, an older worker, would not eat fruit cocktail - cocktail sounded too much like alcohol. 1/99 Leigh Townsend
I recently heard that a worker told his people to not take everything the workers say at face value, but to check it out. How's that for progress?!!!? 11/97 Joan Daniel
I did in my naiveté go back to talk to two of the preachers after I had left to share with them what I had found of the Truth - my assurance of salvation was said to be "arrogant and presumptuous" and my declaration of Jesus being my Lord and God resulted in my being called the anti-christ. I was tossed out on my ear after that, quite shaken and disturbed by the extent of their blindness. Elizabeth Coleman
I once asked a worker, "If someone hasn't been convicted by the Holy Spirit of a particular habit or behaviour, how long do you let that go? Take for instance a woman wearing lipstick.
He replied, "Well, if she had professed and, after a length of time (which could differ with each individual), was still wearing her lipstick, we would then visit her to gently help her understand the error."
I wondered then, where the Holy Spirit fit into this picture. Did He (the Holy Spirit) tell the workers it was time to tell so-and-so about her lipstick? 11/97 Linda Tame
I remember when I was a boy riding in the car with an older worker named Clinton Heldstab. He said that he envisioned the day when he and Jesus would come back and fly around in an helicoptor and shoot off all of the steeples from all of the churches. 7/98 Roger Stip
And I heard a worker say while I was riding with him and my parents in the family car and we passed such a building, "THAT is quite an institution for the blind!" His comment influenced our family's attitude thereafter.
Many indoctrinated into the 2x2 group still do consider churches "institutes for the blind!" They lump everyone, and every edifice other than themselves and of their own, into one group, "blind" and "deceived". Dennis Jacobsen 7/98
My wife continued to go [to meeting] for awhile without me and heard them preaching that it was dangerous to read your Bible too much. It was emphasized a number of times. 12/98
A worker in New Mexico spoke at special meeting, "You have ALL climbed a mountain to be here, but you are here!" 1/99 Cheryle Winberg
So much importance is placed on the meeting. What are they worshipping? The meeting? 1/99 Sandi Gunther
Here are some quotes of George Poole that he said to me: - If she was my wife I would give her quite a beating! - Let the weak ones die - so the flock won't be contaminated! - They weren't professing so what does it matter! 24 July 99 Leigh Townsend
When I was still professing I asked a worker, "Why don't we pray for the sick?" She said "God could heal the sick if He wanted to, but He doesn't want to." [I thought who was she to speak for God.] I knew the 'worldly'churches prayed for the sick just like it says to do in the Bible. And if the workers were really God's servants and if they really represent Jesus [why didn't they do it]? Lynn Cooper 8/99
Q Do you, sir, file income tax forms in Canada?
A Pardon me?
Q I’m sorry. Do you file income returns in Canada?
A We have just started this year to do it. It hasn’t been necessary before that. I filed a letter with the -- I filed a letter with the Income Tax Department in 1949, that from a certain date in 1948 I began in this full time evangelistic ministry, and I’m only supported by the unsolicited free will offerings, and I have never heard from them since, but now they have required our ministers to file income tax returns for the sake of Alberta Health. It was a policy.
Q What happens when you receive monies that are more than are necessary for you? You said -- you told us they are used. Where are they put, those monies?
A The money is entrusted to me in the first place, and then I entrust that to faithful elders among us, the local church elders, and they keep it for me, and it’s used at my discretion.
Q You have the sole discretion as to how to spend that money, and there is no accountability except to God?
A As far as I’m concerned. But any interest that is accrued on that money is looked after by the elders that have it. It’s held in trust, and it’s not in anyone’s name but their own, and so they pay the income tax on the interest that is accrued.
Q Your group never meets in formal church buildings; does it?
A On occasion.
Q Are you referring to the convention grounds?
A No. No. But sometimes we have the use of church buildings for preaching the gospel.
Q Now, you talked previously when Mr. Schwartz was asking you questions about the hierarchy of the group. Now, if a Worker and a Friend don’t agree on an issue, where can the Friend appeal that decision by a Worker to?
A Would you mind repeating that, again, please?
Q Okay. There is a disagreement between a Worker and a Friend. The Worker makes his decision on an issue and the Friend doesn’t like it?
A The Friend --
Q Let’s say that the Worker says to the Friend that I don’t want you to attend Meeting any more. Now, where would the Worker -- or where would the Friend appeal that decision to?
A I -- I haven’t any experience of asking a person to stay away from a Meeting.
Q Okay. But I’m giving you a hypothetical issue, and the question isn’t whether or not you know of people who have been told to stay away from Meeting. The issue is if that decision was made, where would the Friend appeal that decision to. Would he come to you?
A They could come to me. The reason that a person would be asked to stay away from a Meeting, I know of some instances when that has happened, but the reason for it is -- well -- well advised that it’s not proper, and they are only asked to stay away from a Meeting for a time, with a thought of returning.
Q When did your group start?
A In Alberta, it began in 1907.
Q Before that?
A I know it came from Ireland before that
Q Okay. Isn’t it, in fact, the case that your group, your denomination was started by William Irvine in Ireland in 1897?
A That’s an untrue statement, sir.
Q Well when did start it, then? [Well when did it start then?]
A No one could start the Lord’s way in the world. People can find the Lord’s way in the world, but no one can found it. It was settled in heaven before the world was.
Q Okay, so you are saying no one can start it, they can only find it?
A Yeah.
Q Who found it?
A Pardon?
Q Who found it, then?
A Well, I found it in 1940.
Q Okay. Who was the first Worker?
A I wouldn’t know that, sir.
Q Well, the point I’m getting at, Mr. Propp, is people who’ve researched this group can take it all the way back to Ireland in 1897, and then it stops with William Irvine.
A I see.
Q Now, do you know of any Workers prior to Mr. Irvine?
A I don’t know, no.
Q Okay. And, in fact, Mr. Irvine was excommunicated from your group; wasn’t he?
A All I know about that is from what others have told me, and he was once hearty in his fellowship, and for reasons that I am not sure about, he was asked to leave, and it was only after that that he suggested that he had founded the group.
Q In fact, one of the early Workers, Edward Cooney, he was asked to leave, as well; wasn’t he?
A Exactly.
Q And the William Irvine, his followers today are commonly called Irvinites or the Message People, as I understand it?
A And the ones that follow Cooney were called Cooneyites.
Q You are aware of various web sites and chat groups on the Internet about your group?
A I know about them, but I don’t break into them. Some of the other Workers do.
Q Now, if a Friend has done something wrong, my understanding is that they might have Meeting pulled from their house or they might not be allowed to participate in Meeting; is that correct?
A A meeting pulled from a house is if the Workers aren’t welcome in the house.
Q Now, you have already indicated that sermons are not tape recorded, but are notes kept of the Meetings and the sermons?
A Not all notes -- or not all messages are.
Q Are you aware of any instances where the Workers have directed that notes not be taken?
A Yes, I believe they would rather not because often people don’t get it accurately, and when they do, we ask them to send their copy to us so we can edit it so that a misinterpretation is not given.
Q So you are indicating that the Workers have sometimes directed people not to take notes at Meeting and Convention because they might not get it right?
A Well, not to distribute them. They can have them for themselves, but not to distribute them.
Q But in your group, can an individual achieve salvation without the assistance of a Worker?
A I believe they would be brought in touch with the ministry in time.
Q So that’s a no?
A Yes, it’s not -- they don’t have to hear a Worker. They can hear one of our Friends who would eventually bring them in touch with the ministry. The ministry is a foundation of the church. It’s built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets. Jesus Christ, himself, being the chief cornerstone.
Q But what I’m talking about, sir, isn’t it a belief of your group that in order to achieve salvation, they must achieve it by hearing the gospel from the Workers?
A Well, it’s just a point of doctrine that we are not to talk about, sir
Q Well, I am no talking about doctrine, sir. I am talking about characteristics of groups; is that one of your beliefs? [Well, I am not ...]
A It’s part of the doctrine of the church that how can people hear without a preacher and how can they preach except -- that’s part of the biblical doctrine. I’m sure other churches would be reading that same verse.
Q Now, would you agree that your group has various rules about conduct and what is expected of people?
A We don’t have rules and regulations, and if they are interpreted as such, we are sorry. We encourage people, as we said. We are not directors of man’s conscience, we are just ministers of the word.
Q Well, Mr. Propp, you already testified that you are a penniless preacher. Above and beyond what we’ve talked about today, you don’t have any other business interest; do you?
A I certainly don’t. And I would like to just add that I am not a penniless preacher. That’s not a terminology among us because we all have money that is given to us. Free will. We are not penniless.
Q I would assume that when the Workers go out into the field, do they always pay cash or do they use credit cards?
A Some have credit cards and some pay cash.
Q And I understand at various times, you had a credit card?
A I did, sir.
Q One with a rather high credit limit?
A Yes, because we dealt with all the travel of our overseas Workers back in -- and it was very convenient for that.
Q I believe the credit limit on your card was $20,000?
A It was in excess of 20,000 at one time.
"Friends, this isn’t A way. This is THE way. This isn’t A church… this is THE church."
"I KNOW in whom I have believed. I KNOW that this is God’s way. I KNOW that these are God’s servants. I KNOW that this book was inspired by the Holy Spirit."
"Do you know how you could tell those who believed in Noah’s day? They were in the ark! Do you know how you can tell those who believe in OUR day? They’re in the ark. Now you may say “How about those people who have never heard the Gospel?” Friends, I’m going to leave them in the hands of God. I love that verse in Genesis 18 “Shall not the judge of all the earth do right!” I’m not wise enough or Godly enough to make judgement. I can make discernments. But friends, I like what a brother said about his own mother “I feel that if my mother had died before the workers came, she would have gone to a saved eternity. My reason for believing that. She was in this church and she wasn’t satisfied. She was in that church and she wasn’t satisfied.” Jesus said “My sheep hear my voice. “ …And she didn’t hear the shepherd’s voice and she didn’t stay in that religious persuasion. Fortunately for her, the workers did come, and she died in the faith. But I liked what this brother said. I don’t know the people out there who have never had the privilege of meeting two of these men, or two of these women, that’s for God to decide. But I do know that the heavens declare the glory of God, the firmament showeth forth His handiwork. Day unto day declareth wisdom, night unto night declareth knowledge…and I’ll leave judgement for God to decide. But I am so thankful that we are a tent full of people and we’re drinking of the cup of fellowship. "