Surprised to see that he spoke so strongly on the subject of "Christmas". Many of the friends in New Zealand and Ireland send Christmas Cards (of a non-religious nature), have presents for their families, and those with children quite often have a Christmas Tree. The workers here more or less ignore Christmas but I have never heard them speak on the subject, either for or against.

Anyone who buys a Christmas Tree buys it knowing it will be burned in a few days time, and if Eldon (Tenniswood) really believes a Christmas Tree constitutes idol worship, I would have to question his ability to instruct others on the subject of worship.

I thought it strange whenever my mom or anyone I knew that would get a card from my 2/2 relatives, that the cards were always so bland, never any Christian message. I pointed it out one day to an older worker, telling her about the beautiful cards Dayspring makes. I couldn't get too much of a response out of her.

I've always wondered why American 2x2s didn't believe in Christmas. Here in Australia we celebrate it quite openly. That is we have trees, gifts, turkey etc etc... I remember not long ago an American girl was in a Sunday morning meeting where there was a Xmas tree in the home. Afterwards she said she didn't feel like she could have fellowship in that home?!!! Interesting to hear the differences re: Christmas in New Zealand, Australia, and America.

A lot of you may think it very strange, but my Christmas experience [in Australia] is the absolute opposite to most of you!

When in the 2x2s, everybody celebrated Christmas, had trees, presents, decoration, etc. It wasn't spoken about among the friends, but everyone did it and I don't recall anything ever being said by the workers. Christmas is very big with my [professing] parents. We used to leave milk and cookies out for Santa, carrot for the reindeer, the whole kaboodle!

Well, now I have left the 2x2s, I don't celebrate Christmas anymore! (This has nothing to do with my current church affiliation, we have a Christmas service and most people in the church do celebrate Christmas)

I've found that there are differences on this subject in the United States. In Oregon there are differences from city to city, house to house. Locally, one elder's wife has started putting up a small tree in another room other than the room where Sun. A.M. meeting is held. Others decorate their homes but forego a tree, give gifts, etc. My son-in-law who's parents were raised in the group, said he always had a tree. I've heard workers speak against such things in our area, but not all obey them it seems.

In my area of Canada Christmas trees are NOT acceptable although I’ve heard of some of the friends hiding trees. Even heard of an elder and his wife here who put up a Christmas tree in their basement where the workers would never see it!

I'm told that Christmas trees used to be OK but in about 1945 a certain worker went around "cleaning up the Christmas trees." Apparently he went around to the various professing homes and suggested that trees were a no-no. I guess that's about all it took! The trees were history!

I remember Christmas to be a very sorrowful time in my family while I was growing up. My mother, having decided to go back to meeting halfway through her marriage, without bothering to give any reason for it to my dad, suddenly decided that she no longer wanted a Christmas tree in the living room, or any decorations. (No matter that my dad was Catholic and these things were important to him and my brother and I, as children)

I will never forget the year my poor dad took all of the Christmas decorations down to our basement, and he decorated the whole basement, tree and everything. I will never forget that year, sitting downstairs listening to Christmas music and looking at all the beautiful lights, while my dad stood, drink in his hand, with nearly tears going down his cheeks. All the years he had celebrated the season with my mother were now gone...just like her beautiful short hairstyle, her beautiful lipstick and eyeshadow, and, most of all, her happy outlook on life. All was gone. The woman he married was long gone. I can remember such sadness in my father. He began to drink even more heavily after that. At the time, I did not really realize what was happening, but I just talked to my dad about that Christmas about a month ago, and he told me about how painful it was for him.

And you can imagine my mother, with her holy, pious, righteous bun, and attitude, sitting upstairs in her chair alone, reading her Bible.....and not understanding ANY of what God was trying to tell her through the words. All the while we were downstairs, trying to celebrate the miracle of God becoming flesh for us, for our sins...and for our salvation. How sad that mom didn't think she needed any part of that.

Christmas for the 2x2s in Ireland was O.K. as far as the workers were concerned, and was celebrated by the friends in much the same way as everyone else. Christmas dinner, Christmas cards, Christmas trees, etc, though Christmas decorations would be perhaps rather restrained.

I believe that the friends would often have a Christmas dinner as well. Maybe not ON Christmas day but it could be on that day. Of course this was only because it was a holiday time and "certainly" NOT to represent Christmas. Who knows for sure!?

It didn't bother me to not celebrate Christmas. In fact I rather enjoyed not having all the hubbub of it!

About Christmas trees:

We certainly saw some changes during my childhood in this regard in Montana. When we were young kids, we usually had a Christmas tree (even though my Dad thought they were way too messy!) and we had meetings in our home. Then, we moved to another town and went to meeting in someone else's home. The wife was a piano teacher and she always had quite an elaborate Christmas tree in her living room. It never seemed to be a problem at that time.

Then there were changes of "authority" and suddenly it was wrong to have a Christmas tree. By then, Dad was not an elder (or at least he was only second in command in our small meeting) and we continued to have Christmas trees anytime we were having the whole family back together for Christmas. (My parents would have continued to have a tree if they wanted even if Dad had been an elder... no wonder people "saw it coming" when I left... I was raised by rebel parents!!) We always exchanged gifts, too. Not elaborate... not many... but always something.

We also had special meetings between Thanksgiving and Christmas. I always thought it was quite ironic that EVERY hall or school we had our special meetings in had a big, beautiful Christmas tree right in the middle of things... it never seemed to "ruin the spirit" for anyone there... I always wondered if I was the only one who even thought about it.

How did I feel about Christmas growing up/professing?

Like I was missing something. It was such a big deal for all my friends, but was just another day at our house. Although there were a couple of Christmas' a fuss was made.

I really enjoy Christmas now! Why? Mainly because my husband's extended family all gathers at somebodies house on Christmas day, and we visit, eat, laugh, play games, eat, sing, play music, play with the new toys (when the kids aren't looking!), share family stories, eat, etc. It's not so much the gifts, it's being with family. We share our joy at each new addition, and share our grief with each loss. Christmas was never like that before!

Our families did not celebrate Christmas in the same way. I had never so much as heard of ANY professing people who didn't exchange gifts at Christmas time. I loved that time of the year, and looked forward to it. I simply couldn't imagine life without Christmas gifts. On the other hand, Dave had been raised in Oklahoma where Christmas was no different from any other day--no gifts, cards, decorations, dinner, special eats, etc. In fact, celebrating was considered sinful! We didn't discover this until the first Christmas we were married, which was a disaster. I happily bought presents and gaily wrapped them and left them laying on the fireplace hearth in the living room. Whenever someone was coming over, Dave would hide all the presents. We resolved to ask the workers about this before the next Christmas rolled around.

When Hubert Childers and Lecil Sullivan come for a meal, we each told them exactly how our family had viewed and celebrated Christmas. Our problem was obvious. We told the workers we had decided we would do whatever they suggested. My parents had decided they would also. Neither Dave nor my parents thought we would ever celebrate another Christmas with gifts. I still appreciate what Hubert said. "There is never ever anything wrong in giving gifts--at any time." He asked Lecil if he agreed. Lecil did. He also told us that when we had children, we would need to be "wise with the little ones" with regard to Christmas. That settled it for us. Dave's parents told Joe Hobbs, an Oklahoma brother worker, what Hubert said. Joe replied, "Oh, I'm positive Hubert would never have said that. They must have misunderstood him." The misunderstanding was all in Joe's mind. A clear example of the unity that doesn't exist.

Christmas wasn't Jesus' birthday, more like Santa Claus's, we did the whole route even with all the worker relatives, we had a tree, even decorated with lights on the house one year. Gave presents, nice big dinner, etc.

I remember most of the friends entering in with the whole bunch of stuff, until Howard Mooney came to Oregon to be overseer of the state, around 1959-1960 when the next Christmas there weren't very many homes that had Christmas trees anymore. He spoke about trees one night at meeting, I remember. Our family continued to have a tree though, still do at the family Christmas gathering, workers included. They come each year and get their presents too.

Of course, others in states around Oregon thought we were too liberal. My cousin in California wasn't even allowed to get together for potlucks, sings, baseball games, etc. That was another thing we grew up with, the knowledge that the "truth" is certainly different from state to state.

Oh, and don't ever tell anyone to have a "Merry Christmas", or "Happy Easter". That was getting a little too carried away. 4/97

I have fond memories of Christmas when I was little before I professed at 11. My mother was temporarily kind of "out" at the time after marrying a non-proffessing person. But after I professed & my mother started going back to meetings, everything stopped except for the turkey meal & family getting together. My oldest sister called it the dark ages as she never professed and said that's when all the fun went out of life. (Now, looking back, I agree with her.) We no longer had a tree, gave gifts, or sang Christmas carols as we thought it all to be wrong. But we did enjoy getting together and eating. After I was married we were even stricter about Christmas & didn't even let our kids take part in the Christmas concerts at school. We heard some 2x2's including workers making fun of Christmas but others seemed to celebrate it regardless. It was always a bit confusing to me because I still "secretly" loved the Christmas carols & the fun of gift giving. We now of course celebrate Christmas.

In reading one of the posts today...I can't recall exactly which one...it was the one that mentioned not celebrating Christmas, Easter, etc., it caused me to remember a conversation I had with my mother. I was the oldest and was no longer at home and the subject of Christmas came up. I took the opportunity then to tell her that she should start giving presents to my younger brother and sister. I explained to her that by not doing so causes them to lie. I could distinctly remember going to elementary school and high school and when asked about what I got, would proceed to make up a list of gifts I had received. It was far too embarrassing to admit that we didn't receive anything at all (because no matter how you tried to explain nobody understood). I encouraged my mother and dad at that time to begin buying gifts for my baby brother and sister so they wouldn't have to lie. I told them it is wrong to have a rule that encourages lying and children are too young to really understand why you are not giving them something. They actually started giving gifts from that time on and I was glad my siblings didn't have to go through what us older siblings did. 10/97

I believe quite a few of the friends around the world celebrate
Christmas quite traditionally - gifts and a tree and whatever.  One
couple I know had to make the decision of what to do when they got
married - her folks did not celebrate Christmas (except as many families
do - they had family over that day) and his family gave gifts and had a
tree.  They decided they would compromise and give gifts, but no tree.
10/97  

My [2x2] mom really struggled with Christmas. She was raised Lutheran (Norwegian background) and had many wonderful memories and very old treasured Christmas decorations. Some years we had Christmas and some years we didn't...there was a continual argument about it. 10/97

Here are some of the reasons that we were told we could not celebrate
Christmas in the 2x2's. 

 Jesus’ birth came about in a very quiet way; no
fuss or celebration.  Hmmmmm.. .  Has anyone had a birthday like His?. Angels
at the event?. . A celebration taking place in heaven and on earth?... Singing and
rejoicing?

The other reason was that the world concentrates on His birth, when He is
already on His way back.  Hmmmmm. . . I wonder how He could have died and rose
for us if He was not born into this world?  Did I swallow this?  Of course!  I
even taught it to my children.

I'm so glad that I can rejoice at this season, because Jesus was born into this 
world. "God with us." We could not be with God, so He came to be with us!
Nothing could separate God from His creation--man. whom He loved so much. 
Thank you Lord for your love. Thank you for all the friends we have met on this
list. Thank you Lord for bringing us together even if it was through strange 
circumstances. Though we don't all think alike, You asked us to LOVE one another, 
not understand each other.  May all feel the warmth and love of an awesome God 
this season, and may it reflect some of this in our daily lives.   12/97      
Bless you all, 
 Sheila Martin    

Christmas always carries very sad feelings for me.  I was told we didn't
celebrate Christmas because it was a worldly custom--if the world did it,
we were to have no part of it.

I felt so left out and so lost.  I remember looking through every page
of the Sears catalog every year at Christmas time and wishing I could have
one of those beautiful dolls--with curly hair!  I have lots of dolls and
bears now, and I get nice gifts every Christmas, but it is not the same.
No one can replace or make up for what you lost as a child.

We were not allowed to participate in sports at all.  I was in the
choir, on the debate team, and a literary club (we read books!).  I
remember thinking at Christmas time especially, how sad it was that the
girls next to me were singing about Jesus, but would never really know
him.  I often wondered how it could be that Billy Graham wasn't really
a Christian either.

Enough childhood memories!  I NEVER knew the meaning of Christmas and
the gift it really represented until I became a "real" Christian.  I'm
grateful to God for parting with His son for 33 years.  I'm grateful to
Mary for being willing to lay her reputation on the line and obey God.  I
have wonderful memories of reading the Christmas story to my children,
I wish I had memories of my Dad doing the same for us.  :-(  12/97

Hello all....Merry Christmas.

I have read with interest the variety of responses to Christmas and it
certainly has brought back memories for me.  We never celebrated Christmas
from the day my parents professed.  Mom always loved telling the story about
me (they professed when I was approximately six years old) and the story went
something like this.....Mom claimed she sat down with me and explained why we
wouldn't be celebrating Christmas anymore....she said she told me that Jesus
needed to be celebrated everyday in our lives and that is was wrong to
celebrate just one day....then she would say that I looked at her and said,
"If that is what Jesus wants then that is fine with me."  What did I know?  I
was six.  Anyway, all I can remember is that I dreaded every year when
Christmas would come because that time of the year meant that was when I would
go into my lying mode.  It was just too embarrassing to tell my schoolmates
and friends that we didn't get anything for Christmas because we didn't
believe in Christmas.  So I would make up a list of things that I got for
Christmas.  Pretty sad, huh?

Now, since I do celebrate Christmas, I find this time of the year a joyous
time.  At first I celebrated only Santa Claus and the appearances of
Christmas, i.e., tree, lights, etc.  Now, I find I really enjoy the wonderful
music, spirit and thoughts of celebrating Jesus birth.  I get all emotional
and even cry at the Hallmark commercials.  This year, we are going to be with
our grandchildren in Albuquerque and we can't wait.  They are 3 and 5 years
old.  What fun it will be!  I love giving presents!  Anyway, just my thoughts
on Christmas.  12/97

Love in him,
************

I was reading all of the posts about Christmas and thinking the same
thing.  We were never allowed to believe in the happiness or the
thanksgiving of this wonderful holiday as children either.  I think it
is a shame and I always remember thinking that it was rather
hypocritical of us all (truthers) to not celebrate Christ's sacrifice
for us sinners.  12/97  

For me, the Christmas carols have taken on a whole new meaning.  Instead of
worthless songs that we used to sing at school, I can truly raise my voice
with others and sing for Joy.  He HAS come!  Not only that, but He has come
to SAVE!  Praise be to God.  12/97