If you’ve ever asked the questions when and where did the 2x2 church start, you might have heard some of the following:

You might also have heard various stories, explanations, analogies or even denials of the stories of others.

As to WHEN WAS IT STARTED? Or what was the startup date? Some answers have been: from before world began; when Jesus sent out the disciples 2 and 2; in the New Testament; around 1900; it was planned by God before the foundation of the world; it doesnt matter; or I don’t know.

For a location for WHERE DID IT START? you may be told in Heaven, in Ireland, in Scotland, in Galilee, Armenia, Switzerland, Italy, in the heart of God, in the Garden of Eden; it doesn't matter or I don’t know.

Perhaps the question that generates the most variety of answers is WHO WAS WILLIAM IRVINE? You maybe told that he was just a worker; a man used of God; a prophet; a man highly favored of God; a man God “raised up,” or I never heard of him.

In attempting to discover WHAT BECAME OF WILLIAM IRVINE? you may hear that he lost his anointing, became mentally unbalanced; had the misfortune to lose his mind; was a womanizer; became too proud and lifted up in himself; or that he had to be eliminated, removed, ousted, dispelled, excommunicated, etc.

As to HOW WAS IT STARTED? some say it was by a man’s revelation; others say it was restarted or restored by a man or some men; while others maintain that Jesus started it in the New Testament; or I don't know.

Regarding WHO WM. IRVINE HEARD IT FROM? the answers given may be: from Willie Gill’s family; through Irvine's sister; from the underground remnant; by revelation from God; it doesn't matter; or I don't know.

The following quotes are by workers and friends from all over the world. One would expect their statements to be similar and certainly not to oppose each other. Notice how the answers vary considerably...while coming from followers claiming their church is "the same the world over."  These two hymns are sometimes quoted to suport the idea that the 2x2church is the same worldwide:  335 - No East or West; and No. 11 - Jesus is the same.

HOW...?

"It Was started by Wm. Irvine"

"...my remembrance of how for several years at Special meeting time, I remember a favorite subject of Wm. Jamieson (when the Workers would be gathered in the home) was to tell us that as far back as we could trace this fellowship was unto Wm. Irvine. He spoke openly and freely of all which he knew of Wm. Irvine, etc. What he told us was unto enough people that it would be common knowledge statewide."  (Donald Fisher letter to Fred Miller, circa 1982 )

1995: New Brunswick worker:  Wm. Irvine was the man who "brought order to this way."

"Our mission was started by William Irwin, a Scotchman, seven or eight years ago. Others followed him. I myself was a Civil Servant in Dublin. I resigned my post, sold all that I had and gave to the poor, and went out to preach." Wilson McClung, Overseer of New Zealand, Feb. 16, 1905 Impartial Reporter)

"Since early workers followed a Scottish preacher in Ireland before the turn of the 20th century, they have spent their lives traveling from home to home with little more than their clothes." William Lewis, Minneapolis Star Tribune, Minnesota 11/2/86

"With regard to your question about William Irvine, there is no need for us to be 'brave and honest enough' to acknowledge the part he had in this Fellowship in the early part of this century, as there is no secret about it. He was not alone, of course, as there were other good and faithful men there also, but he no doubt had the leading part. However, when it comes to acknowledging him as being the 'Founder' the answer is definitely 'No', for the simple reason that he was not. The Truth of God has been from the beginning - Psalm 119:89 tells us 'For ever, O Lord, Thy word is settled in Heaven.'...  We are glad that in our day and age God can revive His work and is still sending forth those who will go as Jesus commanded to carry the same Gospel into the world. But our only 'Founder' is Christ, He is the cornerstone, the only rock on which we seek to build and we do not need or believe in anything else." Ken Pagington Letter to Kathleen Overby, 5/25/95

John Long's Journal confirms that Wm. Irvine was the founder of the 2x2 sect.

"Irvine's founding role is of little consequence, for we alone follow the true pattern of the original apostles, and the early church." Gordon McNabb (in "The Secret Sect")

The narrative was that Wm. Irvine. went to Switzerland to be treated for Miner's Lung and heard the gospel through a nurse. He then brought back the "seed" to the British Isles where it propagated from there.  (Brother Worker)

Verification by workers that The Secret Sect contains the true story:

TTT Editor's Note: The Secret Sect is a book written by Doug & Helen Parker, published in 1982. The forerunner of The Secret Sect was a pamphlet titled A Spiritual Fraud, which was mailed out to numerous workersall over the world. Parker's book gives the details surrounding the group's beginning and evidence showing that Wm. Irvine was their Founder. The following friends and workers endorse Parker's book as being true.

A brother worker who read The Secret Sect, stated that it's factually sound from what he already knew, except for a few minor details; his knowledge came from older workers who personally knew William Irvine.

An ex-worker said when he was first in the work, he received a long document (probably A Spiritual Fraud by Doug Parker) containing information about the beginning of this fellowship.  When he asked his older companion Fred Kinglake whether or not it was true, Fred said, "I can't say that it's not true."

In the August 18, 1983, Skagit Valley Herald , serving NW Washington, reporters asked Therald Sylvester (deceased Western USA Overseer)  if he denied the historical account of the group's origins found in the book The Secret Sect , and he replied, "We don't deny that."

It was started by a group of of men (rather than ONE man)

"At the end of the 19 century, there were men and women that were searching for truth and crying out to God to show them His way. And God answered that request. One of the notable things about that generation was that they feared God. One person asked George Walker, "George, who really got the revelation from God?" George responded that several got it at the same time. It was like Acts 2 when God poured out His Spirit on several at the same time. Our day has mirrored the Acts of the apostles. Those men and women, freshly anointed with God's Spirit, went forth in all directions of the world preaching the word of God, all with the same revelation. It is true that some got off, but the vast majority received a revelation whereby they would have fellowship first with God, and then with each other."  (Ray Hoffman, Overseer Eastern US, Oct. 4, 2023)

"...not by William Irvine, but rather by many men getting together and deciding to really follow the New Testament teaching of Jesus" (William Peterson, Deceased Kansas & Oklahoma Worker Overseer).

"We know that it began with a group of men in the British Isles around the turn of the century. That's as far as we have been able to trace it" (Walter Pollock, Worker, Spokesman Review, June 5, 1983).

"The church was formed at the turn of the century in Great Britain. A number of people in England, Scotland, and Ireland discovered they were missing something spiritually...the Lord brought them together, and they found they saw eye to eye on the ministry" (Walter Pollock, Worker in 1984 Coeur d'Alene Press, Coeur d'Alene, Idaho).

"Irvine and others received revelation from God and then were subsequently used as instruments to preach the message of the Lord Jesus. As they reached various parts of the world, they encountered others who received the same revelation--some prior to their arrival, some upon hearing their message--and fellowship was created between them."

1942 Statement by George Walker to U.A. Selective Service  (FIRST Eastern USA Overseer, deceased): "We take this opportunity to state that during the closing years of the last century and the first years of this century a number of people in the British Isles and in America were exercised in heart and mind, through their study of the Scriptures, in regard to the methods of preaching and worship in the several churches of which they were then members. They were deeply concerned about spiritual things, and became fully convinced that there should be a return to the methods and purposes taught and carried out by Christ and His first disciples. This conviction led to frequent earnest conversations and studies on the subject, which in turn led to religious meetings, and in due time a number of these people went forth to devote their lives to the preaching of the Gospel".

" Mr. Walker said that he thinks some Christians have believed as his people do since the days of Christ. About twenty-two years ago, he said, church members in England and north Ireland became interested in the doctrines, and out of this has come the spread of the faith into this country, Canada, Australia and New Zealand…William Irvine, a Scotchman, one of the original leaders, is not now affiliated with this group because of a difference over the prophecies of the Revelations, Mr. Walker said." [1921 minus 22 years = 1898 start date per George Walker] (September 26, 1921, page 11 - Indianapolis News, Indiana, USA)

An analogy cannot disprove historical facts. Since white horses and belief systems are NOT in the same class, the value of this analogy is for illustration purposes only.  It shows a far-fetched, remote possibility, but provides nothing more.  There is no evidence of the existence of the 2x2 ministers and church in the home fellowship before William Irvine. Furthermore, there is much evidence to the contrary which proves it started in 1897-1901. Some believe if something has not been proven true, that proves it is false. Some reason the converse of this, in this way: "You can't prove it's not true, so I have good reason to believe it IS true."  As "good" reasons go, this one is poor and the chances of it being true are pretty slim.  It's practically wishful thinking, or self deception. If something cannot be proven true, all that is known is just that:  it has not yet been proven true or false.  It is unknown, and no (valid) inferences can be made from it.  What other alternatives can you think of besides a temporary disappearance (gap) for no fathomable reason??

"Lewis (William) says there is no one founder or group of founders that this church...can trace its lineage to. 'Not to my knowledge,' Lewis says. 'We don't treat genealogical records as being purposeful. What would it mean to me if I could prove I'm a descendant of Abraham?'" quote of William Lewis, (deceased Southern USA Overseer) The Sunday Sun, Georgetown, Texas, July 14, 1991

Contracting his above statement, Lewis also told reporter of Minneapolis Star Tribune in 1986:
Since early workers followed a Scottish preacher in Ireland before the turn of the 20th century, they have spent their lives traveling from home to home with little more than their clothes

Western Sr. Worker, Walter Pollock, told a Spokane, Washington reporter in 1983:
"We know that it began with a group of men in the British Isles around the turn of the century. That's as far as we've been able to trace it."

The following year, 1984, Walter Pollock told a Coeur d'Alene, Idaho reporter:
"The church was formed at the turn of the century in Great Britain. A number of people in England, Scotland, and Ireland discovered they were missing something spiritually...the Lord brought them together, and they found they saw eye to eye on the ministry" (Walter Pollock, 1984 Coeur d'Alene Press, Coeur d'Alene, Idaho).

"Don't worry about tracing the truth back. The Jews could trace to Abraham and it didn't mean a thing. God can raise up people from stones...we don't need to trace it back. When we see God's work in people, we know is it from him." Arnold Brown, Sept., 1988 York, NE conv. 

"We don't have any genealogy.   We don't have to have...God could raise up people if there had been a thousand years of no one professing. Titus and Timothy speak about old wives fables, etc. We don't have to trace people back to Christ, etc., today.  Those that are God's children don't have to trace their genealogy back to Abraham.  The faith that Abraham had makes us children of Abraham."  (Arnold Brown 1989 York Convention #2)

GAP EXPLANATION...before 1897

A 20th century start-up date leaves a 1900 year GAP between Jesus sending out the disciples 2 and 2 and the year 1897 when Wm. Irvine started his ministry. Beginning today and traveling BACK in the time and history of the 2x2 fellowship, the trail leads back to 1897-99, Ireland, and a man named William Irvine. On the other hand, if we start at the beginning of humanity, with Adam and  Eve, and continue to follow God's way, we arrive at the current year.  The two roads do not meet.  If the two were one and the same road or way, they should meet. However, there is a GAP between the road of God's way traced forward from "the beginning" and Irvine's fellowship traced backward from the present. There are some standard  explanations given for the gap.

"Also we are sometimes asked about the period between...the first century and the present twentieth century. Jesus is the author and finisher of our faith. We have no written records on earth of God's work in the world during this period. God's records are written in heaven, Malachi 3:16, Luke 10:20, Rev. 20:12. Any who would suggest a written genealogy record is necessary between the first and twentieth century would fall into the category of 1 Tim. 1:3-4: 'that thou might charge some that they teach no other doctrine. Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do.'" Click here to read entire sermon: Dan Hilton, Worker,1/1/84 Burlington, WA Sp. Mtg. [Note: The history of a fellowship that is approx. 100 years old, hardly qualifies as "endless genealogy."]

"It's not God's way to record such things."

"Some say that God's truth was revived or started over or began in the early 1900's.  This serpent raises its ugly head periodically."  Sherlene Oldham, Ex-worker, Letter 1991 to Cherie Kropp.

WHERE did it Start?

It started in Galilee:  A question arises: When did your faith start?...When people ask us about this, we are grateful to know we know when it started. In Acts 10:35: "That word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee , after the baptism which John preached." It began from Galilee . Isn't that a wonderful little story? This Gospel, this Truth, this Word of Jesus, began in Galilee. That is where Jesus was raised and spent many of His days...and began His ministry in Galilee...the earthly fulfillment of the heavenly plan...and continues right down to the present day. It is a wonderful thing we don't keep a history of the kingdom. We have an accountant that keeps a history of every person and does it better than we could...the Lamb's Book of Life. We can be satisfied this was planned in eternity, and Jesus came down and established it in Galilee. Right down to our age today...1996...this same truth which Jesus lived and taught...from place to place, and area to area...(Gordon Winkler, Pulaski, Virginia Convention - Sept. 1, 1996)

"If anyone asks you  where this way started, it wasn't in Ireland. It came from here..." Then he quoted scripture from Acts about after the baptism of John and the shores of Galilee (Wilson Green, Conv. 1990s)

"William Irvine began to think HE started the truth. He was instrumental, but what was born in our hearts was of God. Some began to call us Cooneyites which wasn't the truth either. We preach that our faith began on the shores of Galilee" (Older worker from southern USA).

"This way started in Galilee."  Ned Manning, worker-Irish descent

It Started in the British Isles & America:

According to the 1942 Statement by George Walker to U.A. Selective Service (FIRST Eastern USA Overseer, deceased): "We take this opportunity to state that during the closing years of the last century and the first years of this century a number of people in the British Isles and in America .. became fully convinced that there should be a return to the methods and purposes taught and carried out by Christ and His first disciples...and in due time a number of these people went forth to devote their lives to the preaching of the Gospel".

It Started in IRELAND:

In 1976, Therald Sylvester personally arranged for Joshua Gamble from Ireland to make the whole round of conventions on the West Coast in America, including Walla Walla, WA, Gilroy, CA and Casa Grande, AZ conventions, and asked Joshua to publicly mention the subject at each convention, with the purpose of trying to dispel the "continuous unbroken chain" myth. Evidently Therald thought that the word of someone from "where it all happened" would have more weight. He mentioned William Irvine's name along with the names of several other early workers. Joshua made it clear that there was no continuous ministry going out in this fashion and no recognizable fellowship of this type before the late 1890s. Several have reported hearing Joshua Gamble mention this from the platform. [Joshua Gamble is the uncle of Thomas Gamble, current Ireland Overseer]

"Since early workers followed a Scottish preacher in Ireland before the turn of the 20th century, they have spent their lives traveling from home to home with little more than their clothes, Lewis said." William Lewis, (Southern USA Overseer) quote from in the Minneapolis Star Tribune 11/2/86.

"The light of the truth has been kept burning over the ages and then ignited into flame in Ireland about 100 years ago."

It was started in Ireland and Scotland: Los Angeles Times 9/13/82:  "Richard Wulf, 27, a Two-by-Two worker in Mexico for two years, was asked about this apparent suppression of the sect's origins. 'Near the turn of the century God raised up Godly men in Ireland and Scotland,' Wulf acknowledged. 'We respect them and what they established. But we don't hold to that history and line of succession.' Added Kennedy, a worker spokesman, 'Now we're not following these men, but the New Testament fellowship.'"

"Ireland is the only country where workers weren't imported, but rather exported." Letter of Sydney Holt, California Worker, June 27, 1985 (Click Here to read Sydney Holt's Letters)

"I could not help but thank God for those who came to us from the British Isles and gave us so much.  Over and over, I was reminded that we are debtors to that land--and that people." Helen Montgomery, Aug. 1997.  

"Some have asked about the beginning of this way.  In 1897, there were two workers that came to Ireland." Dan Sherick, Worker, Boyden, IA Conv, Sept 8-11, 1995.

"Ninety years ago, a letter came from Ireland. We heard about those with no home, no name, etc. Forty people made their choice. Sixteen went out in the work--that was the beginning...There is not a country not open to the gospel now. It is the most marvelous thing ever to happen." ["Ninety years ago" = 1987 Minus 90 years = 1897]Funeral Service for Erling Omdal, Oct. 6, 1987, Eagle Bend, Minnesota, spoken by Garrett Hughes (deceased USA Worker Overseer)

"I was in S.A. about 30 years ago and there were only 4 of the S.A. countries that had workers having mtgs then.  Every country there is doing real well for the Gospel now and it's surely a way of what is going around the world over now in our day.  It surely speaks of what began 90 years ago and has gone the world around."  Letter of Garrett Hughes, August 1, 1988

Garrett Hughes also made numerous references from convention platforms in his last years relative to "the beginning of days," first workers, first conventions, etc. One in particular was at Hunter, North Dakota in 1988, 1989 or 1990.  And Garrett would know about these things since his Grandparents were some of the very first to profess in Ireland, in the mission where 40 professed and 16 went in the work. His mother's brother, Willie Gill, became Overseer of England and her two sisters, Emma and Jennie Gill, were the very first sister workers to go out preaching in Irvine's new movement. All three of her siblings went in the work in 1900 and are shown on the 1905 Workers List. Garrett's parents Fred & Mary Ann (Gill) Hughes professed through Wm. Irvine in North Dakota.

"It has also been very encouraging to be in a number of the homes of the saints. We are constantly reminded that it was from this cradle that many of our early workers came to us, and so many of these older saints remember them well and have been able to give me interesting details of their early days. Most of the older ones are gone now. Like in our field, a new generation is carrying on the work."  Howard Mooney from Oregon USA visiting Fermanagh, Ireland Convention in June 24-27, 1970(?)

"Some people are saying that this fellowship began in Ireland 100 years ago. Well, that's true, but what's important is OUR beginning - when WE (personally) first found Jesus." Dellas Linnaman at W. Aust conv.

It Started in the New Testament Days; Jesus is the Founder

"There hasnt been any time of founding.  There's no year or names of founders."  Stephen said, "The only foundation is the teaching of Christ.  The message is the foundation and that has always been to get back to Christ." Charles Steffen (deceased Overseer of New York & New England States) The Cabinet and Wilton Journal, Milford, New Hampshire, 8/4/82.

"We believe we have existed since Jesus sent forth the 70 disciples two by two." Richard Sullivan, 1943

"Some preach a lineage back to Christ, but that's ludicrous."  Randy Satterfield, 1996, Texas & Arkansas Worker

"We are often asked who started this church? Heb. 12:2 'Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith...'Jesus gave us God's eternal plan of salvation in its fullness. He is both the author and finisher." Dan Hilton, deceased Worker, 1/1/84 Burlington, WA Sp. Mtg. 

"Jesus Himself set us up. Whether it was planted in the first century, the 10th century, or the 20th century, the message is the same, it produces the same thing." Therald Sylvester, (deceased Western USA Overseer) The Bellingham, WA Herald 8/20/83.

"We are not following some way founded in the early 1900's, but it goes clear back to Christ." Therald Sylvester (deceased Western Overseer) 11/16/83

"You can tell whether a church is a false church or not if it was started by a man or woman. We are the only church on earth that was started by Christ." Jack Carroll, deceased Western USA Overseer and one of the original workers.

"We aren't believing in a religion. We are believing in a life. The life of God and His Son...Everything that is false has a definite origin--a man who started it. Wesley started the Methodist; Joseph Smith started the Mormons; Mary Baker Eddy started the Christian Scientist. This is the only way that was started by Christ." Willie Jamieson, deceased Western USA Overseer and one of the original workers, Post Falls Conv., 1957.

"I consider that we are the most privileged people in all the world for the simple reason that what we believe and stand for and teach doesn't have its origin with man. You don't go back into the history of the world to find it. You have to go back to the beginning and to God.  God had this plan in His heart and mind before the foundations of the world were laid. " (Arthur Boyce, Silverdale B.C. Conv. 8/6/61)

"I never met Wm. Irvine at any time and believe he was used of God, but was never the origin of what we believe. I understand he became too big in himself and left the fellowship we love.  Workers I know and respect preach only what Jesus lived and taught with no mention at all of Wm. Irvine or any other man save only real appreciation for those who retell in our day things taught in Jesus day. This faith began in New Testament days, not in Ireland nor in the U.K."   Roddy MacLean (Scotland Worker) Letter dated June 1, 1995

"It started in the Garden of Eden,"Adam Hutchinson would say, "and tell him or her no more." (Secret Sect by Doug & Helen Parker, p. 94).

WHEN...?

It started in 1897 to 1900 - or at the turn of the 20th century

"The church was formed at the turn of the century in Great Britain. A number of people in England, Scotland, and Ireland discovered they were missing something spiritually...the Lord brought them together, and they found they saw eye to eye on the ministry" (Walter Pollock, Worker in 1984 Coeur d'Alene Press, Coeur d'Alene, Idaho).

"Our fellowship was founded around the turn of the century. Well, actually just before the turn of the Century. But it was not found then." She was referring to Jesus, who was found long before then. (Shirley Doolittle, Buttonwillow I, California Convention).

1942 Statement by George Walker to U.A. Selective Service (FIRST Eastern USA Overseer, deceased):  "We take this opportunity to state that during the closing years of the last century and the first years of this century a number of people in the British Isles and in America...and in due time a number of these people went forth to devote their lives to the preaching of the Gospel".

10/96:  Dellas Linaman stated at an Australian convention:  "Some people are saying that this fellowship began in Ireland 100 years ago.  Well, that's true, but what's important is OUR beginning--when we (personally) first found Jesus."

In 1988, Merlin Howlett, brother worker, stated at Milltown convention, "In just the past 88 years we have had the privilege of convention. 88 years ago there wasn't one convention on earth. Now there are 126 conventions. (1988 minus 88 years = 1900 start date)

It is from the BEGINNING...It started with Jesus/God. God Planned it.

"Your statement that our movement was started by W. Irvine & E. Cooney is not correct & very far from the truth. We believe & always will that it is something that was from the beginning. There is a verse that is very real to me & helps me to understand that we are in GOD’S true & only way. Some are wondering as to what happened from the beginning until the 18 & 19th century. The verse I mention says 'As He (GOD) spake by the mouth of His Holy Prophets that have been since the world began.' That makes it very clear to me & gives me strong confidence that I am in something that has been from the beginning, nothing can shake that nor can the gates of hell prevail against it." (Worker, 2013)

"It is a Way that is in this world, but it isn't of the world. It is supported by heaven. People ask, "Who is at the bottom of this?" "Who is the founder?" It is the same God that is at the top and it is supported by heaven" (Clarence Anderson, 1974 Freedom, NY Conv.)

We are often glad when we would speak forth the gospel to others that we are not presenting some thought or theory that would go back a few hundred years. It isn't something that was put together by a group of men, but it is that which is from everlasting to everlasting. I John 1:1 "That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life"  (Rolin Mader, 1968 Newry Conv.)

"Sometimes people ask the question, "When did this way start?" I hope you do not say, "A hundred years ago or so."  I hope you would not say, "Two thousand years ago," for the answer is in this chapter and I will read you the answer when this way of God that we are teaching started. John 1:1, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God, the same was in the beginning with God." This is where it all began, it began with God in the beginning and as far as we know it was before this world and its society started. It was the Word, which we believe is Jesus.  It is nice that John referred to Jesus as the Word, because Jesus did everything that God asked Him to do, so He was the living manifestation of His word; the Word was the expression of His will. When we see Jesus walking in this earth, we have a little picture of Him, and getting to know God's will and His plan, so God and His Son had a plan before man ever came on this world, that there would be a family in Heaven one day that would be bought by the blood of Jesus, and Jesus was willing for that in the eternity that has gone.  So that was the beginning of the way; it was in eternity and it was in God's heart, then Jesus came and lived it. He just asked people to follow, He did not want people's ideas, He did not need our improvements, all His salutation was, "Just follow me." Then was the beginning of our days, and that is another thing." Ray Hoffman - Maroota, NSW Australia, January, 2013.   Read entire sermon on Truth Archive at: http://www.trutharchive.net/ray-hoffman---the-call-of-god---maroota---january-2013

"We are asked by people who have observed our fellowship, 'What is it that makes this fellowship work?' They know it works but how does it work without elected officers? The answer to this question is found in the Bible. We might add there is an answer in the Bible to every vital question. If someone should ask you how your faith works, take them to Galatians 5:6 - for in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth anything, nor uncircumcision: but faith which worketh by love. We tell people in gospel meetings that this is a wonderful Way that is from eternity to eternity. Jesus said this fellowship was planned in heaven in love before the world began. It was established on the cross by love and since then it has been held together in a fellowship of love."  Truth Archive - Undated sermon by Howard Mooney - First line:  John 13, I Corinthians 13, and Hebrew 13 are all love chapters.

"And then what you're believing is about 100 (one hundred) years old. But what we're believing in, especially those from the Jews and other people, who are believing in something a lot older that. I tell you what we believe in goes back further that. Well, the people who have got a revelation of the Truth that is in Jesus, never tried to find comfort or have no reason to try to find comnfort in trying to trace its beginning in the earth. Because it's not where it it began. But we're rather fortunate, we've lived a few years and we've known some that lived quite a few years before they passed from time into eternity, they had a part in preaching the gospel. They could tell us a lot of that experience, sometimes we call 'em the earlier days of their experience. God put it into their hearts to feel after Him, and to seek after Him, and to find and began to believe in a Way like Jesus taught. But I never heard one of them say, "That was when it began." It was just during that period of time, and wonderfully so, God has probably done that in a lot of different days and ages. But we're fortunate to live in one of those when He has been able to raise up people to feel after Him and to find Him, and to find faith to believe in the Son. And the revelation that God gave them didn't go back to just their day, or the day of someone else, it just went back to one that was with the Father--the eternal Father from the beginning. And if we have the unction that these people had in that day, when John said, "You have an unction, you have an anointing," and if you just read about where that understanding of revelation comes, about the foundation of our belief, and that it had its foundation in the earth or, it had its first beginning with the Father, I think it's there, in heaven, back before the world began, then back before man ever came into the earth. It began before man ever sinned, began before the Devil made a decision not to abide in him, became a liar. And that is the beginning of it!"  Irving Ross, Overseer of Ohio & West Virginia, Sunday A.M. meeting, October 26, 1997 - from Truth Archive.

"Some have been inclined to wonder about God’s continuity of His plan on earth. Let us get this clear, for there is no question of His continuity or plan in heaven, none at all, and neither do we speak about it from the platform. That continuity is left to only poor and feeble human beings. The continuity of God's plan is from the foundation of the world and dwells in the heart of God. It was there in Abel's day and in Moses' day — that rock which has followed us was with Christ right through the New Testament to our day. Let's get that clear. Some of us might be inclined to believe there is a human link, but let us say, our father shook hands with our grandfather; and our grandfather shook hands with our great-grandfather, and then our great-grandfather shook hands with someone else, right back to the day of Peter the apostle. Now doesn't that sound weak to think our God would leave His continuity in the hands of poor, sinful men? Yes it is! It has been left in God's heart Himself — in the Father, His Son, and in the Holy Spirit. When God saw fit that the conditions were right, like in the last century, He brought about the other part of His plan so that ordinary souls like you and me could hear of His wonderful plan that came from heaven — the place where it has been preserved. It was brought down from heaven — not out of any storage. God uses human vessels and we know that His continuity has been kept safe in heaven...There may have been times when this Work hasn't been as active, but in God's good time He raises up men and women to take the gospel into the entire world. It was not something that began in this century but was always in God’s heart, His plan of, 'Will you go forth? There is no need to ever be concerned about human continuity, or whatever expression you want to call it, for we have this continuity of heaven, with heaven revealing its plan as it’s always done."  Truth Archive - Bill Macourt - Williams Conv., Western Australia, 2003.

"The Truth can't be started because it is from the beginning."

"We go back to the beginning." Calvin Casselman, Worker, Boring conv. 1988

"It's from the beginning, planned in God's mind before creation." Walter Nelson, Worker, Post Falls Conv. 1967

"People ask us often times, `Where did this doctrine start?' It first came to us over 60 years ago. I thought it started in Canada, because the one that brought the gospel to us was from Canada. We had never heard of it before, and we enquired of him, "Where did you hear this?" He said, `We heard it from someone that came from Ireland or Scotland.' We listened to that Gospel. `Where did it start?'  It started in Heaven, and we are thankful that this Truth came from Heaven that we have accepted today." Clarence Anderson, deceased Worker, Pukekohe Conv., New Zealand, 1986.

"The teachings of the New Testament were started in the first century when God's dear Son was here on earth; that is, those truths were established in a group of believers then...These truths make very clear that what...God's true ministers and Christians believed in, was planned in the heart and mind of God before the world began, and we believe the same today.  So it is 100% false for anyone to say that what we believe was started in some recent year. Letter by Dan Hilton, deceased Worker, 11/21/89

"Some people ask me, when did our church begin. I tell them, 'From the foundation of the world.' " Overseer from one of the Southwest states at Marion Wisconsin Conv. about 2000

"Oh no, this way didn't start 95 years ago. It started in the very heart of God." David Leonhardt, Summer 1996

William Cleland who entered the work in 1900, stated: "It might be a good question to ask those who say they are from the beginning: Who was ahead of William Irvine? William Irvine was entirely responsible for the creation of this movement. He gathered a few converts around him in Ireland, and he had the idea that he could facilitate the spreading of the gospel by having a few men and women join themselves to him. His ideas of preaching were entirely on his ideas of Matthew 10.  And yet, they have the hide to tell one that it went back to time immemorial. It went back to exactly 1899 when the first workers gathered around Bill Irvine"  (The Secret Sect by Parker, page 96, Fn 32).